Sun prepping Java for iPhone: your craplet investment is safe

[kirangp]

We're sure there have been some really great Java Micro Edition apps developed over the years, we just haven't been fortunate enough to find any that aren't a Bejeweled variant run into many of them. But that could very well change with the news that Sun is using that fancy new SDK to develop a Java Virtual Machine for the iPhone, which it expects to have ready "some time after June," and which will allow iPhone users access to the vast libraries of existing JME apps. We suppose the real conundrum now is which Java ME app we'll grab first: Harry Potter, or MapQuest Mobile. These choices, they overwhelm us.

Source

[NucleusKore]

Welcome news. But how has Apple has allowed this to happen? From what I understood, only third party vendors approved by Apple could write software for the iPhone.

[gxsaurav]

Arya's worst nightmare is coming true.

[preshit.net]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Arya's worst nightmare is coming true.

He can choose not to install it. It's not that this will be forced onto him.

[Pathik]

Chalo, now the iPhone seems to have some potential. Without the SDK and JVM it was %&*&^%.

[aryayush]

God, no! What have we done to you, Sun?

It's bad enough that you have infiltrated Mac OS X. At least leave the poor iPhone alone. Can't you see the tears it's trying to hide?

(I hope Apple disallows it.)

[NucleusKore]

^Do you think iphone users will complain? They'll get access to a host of free applications!

[aryayush]

Well, one future iPhone user is definitely complaining. Java is a freaking disease.

[Faun]

....freakin disease ??
lol awesome, i can feel the quirkiness

wat if it was named iJava ? Would it hav been a blessing then

[a_k_s_h_a_y]

Originally Posted by aryayush

Java is a freaking disease.

lol !! are you sure ??
i think you meant its disease on the iphone !

its a power up for iphone !! though not for arya for unknown reasons !

[NucleusKore]

I guess its not good if Apple loses control over it, is it?

[CadCrazy]

Originally Posted by T159

....freakin disease ??
lol awesome, i can feel the quirkiness

wat if it was named iJava ? Would it hav been a blessing then

Lol iJava with iCandy is enough to make it arya's favority

[infra_red_dude]

Welcome news

[aryayush]

What I'd suspected all along is probably going to be true. John Gruber does not think that the SDK allows something like Java to be deployed onto the iPhone, and so do I.

Hah! Take that, Sun. You've already infiltrated everything that is good about technology and have managed to spoil the party. Keep your crap away from the iPhone at least.

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by aryayush

Hah! Take that, Sun. You've already infiltrated everything that is good about technology and have managed to spoil the party. Keep your crap away from the iPhone at least.

Before speaking crap it'd be wise to learn about Java first rather than follow Apple blindly.

They wud say its not possi to deploy java on iphone today; tom they release it and all fanboys hail Apple as if they achieved something like man landing on pluto!

The implementation of KVM requires interaction with low level system services and as of now I suspect Apple doesn't haf a method to provide this to KVM without opening up the sources. So wait for a while, Apple will implement something, mebbe a new API for KVM and then you'll soon see Java on iPhone. KVM can be run on literally any processor out that.. even your microwave oven!!!

[ray|raven]

^ Dude, its JVM- Java Virtual Machine.

And btw, whats the reason for hatred of Java arya,
IMO its a pretty good language to code in.

[infra_red_dude]

^^^ JVM is for PCs, KVM is for mobile devices.

[ray|raven]

^Oops, my bad.

[aryayush]

What is the point of Java on the iPhone?

That's an article by a Java developer and lover (I don't know what's there to love but whatever) and, as you can see, even he does not want to see it on the iPhone.


As for why I hate Java, there are several reasons:
1. It is excruciatingly slow;
2. Java applications are ugly;
3. They are non-native, so all the UI elements look out of place;
4. They don't have any of the awesome features we expect from Cocoa applications; and
5. It's cross-platform.

[ray|raven]

Originally Posted by aryayush

1. It is excruciatingly slow;

Well, yes it a tad-bit slow, but then again it depends on how the code was written.

Originally Posted by aryayush

2. Java applications are ugly;

Not true.If you use the default swing look and feel, it does look bad,
but you could always use the native look and feel.

Originally Posted by aryayush

3. They are non-native, so all the UI elements look out of place;

Again , one can always use the native look and feel.
Look at these screenshots.




See, how close it is to a native look?

Originally Posted by aryayush

4. They don't have any of the awesome features we expect from Cocoa applications; and

No idea on this one.

Originally Posted by aryayush

5. It's cross-platform.

How is this bad ?

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by aryayush

As for why I hate Java, there are several reasons:
1. It is excruciatingly slow;

Code optimization is always possible, but since it defeats the purpose of being cross-platform its usually not. Java apps rely basically on the VM hence optimization is extremely easy and possible and we haf optimized java apps which beat their native counterparts in terms of raw speed of execution.

Originally Posted by aryayush

2. Java applications are ugly;

3. They are non-native, so all the UI elements look out of place;

Both the points are same and NOT TRUE. Java apps can haf both the default UI as well as native UI. This is something even a fresher who's started learning java would tell you.

Originally Posted by aryayush

4. They don't have any of the awesome features we expect from Cocoa applications; and

Like? How can we come to this conclusion now? This point mebbe true and valid but as of now there are no java apps for iphone, so how can this comparison be made?

Originally Posted by aryayush

5. It's cross-platform.

So?

Looking at those points, I haf not doubt is saying that the guy is NOT a java developer since he doesn't know basic things of java. Or if he is then he's been paid to say that.

I mean.. come on... a person claiming to be a java developer doesn't know about optimizations and native UI?? makes me feel sorry for him as he'd be mocked upon by the whole world for his stupid and baseless comments!!

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by aryayush

1. It is excruciatingly slow;

Not on KVM, Nokia N Series, SE P series, K series & iPhone with lots of RAM.

2. Java applications are ugly;

You obviously haven't seen JAVA apps for mobile. Have a look at one of the Concept UI I made for Yahoo Messenger for JAVA.

3. They are non-native, so all the UI elements look out of place;

It can be made to run with native UI.

4. They don't have any of the awesome features we expect from Cocoa applications

Each & every feature of cocoa applications can be given in Java

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Not on KVM, Nokia N Series, SE P series, K series & iPhone with lots of RAM.

Even their PC counterparts can be optimized for speed and KVM is the virtual machine used on N series, P series.. A to Z and 1 to 0 series and whatever series. Its not a mobile device.

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

You obviously haven't seen JAVA apps for mobile

+1

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Each & every feature of cocoa applications can be given in Java

Source for your claim, plz....

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by infra_red_dude

Source for your claim, plz....

One Example jTunes

[aryayush]

@rayraven and infra_red_dude,

Here's a Java application:



And a native application that does the same task:




Another example of a Java application:



And a native one doing the same thing in a much more elegant and resourceful manner:




Don't tell me they are even close to being similar. And screenshots don't do justice to cocoa applications. The whole interface is much more refined and a pleasure to use.

Using gx_saurav's own example, here's jtunes:



And here's a native cocoa application:


And when I said that Java applications do not have features exclusive to the native applications, I didn't mean important features such as the actual music playing capabilities of jtunes vs iTunes. I meant features such as integration with the operating system and Dashboard widgets, support for the Dictionary and Quick Look, dynamic Dock icons, Alex support, etc..

Java applications never were, and never can be, any match for native applications. Case in point, there isn't a single Java application on Mac OS X that is considered indispensable, or is even remotely famous, unlike native applications like Apple's default set, Delicious Library, NetNewsWire, BBEdit, etc..

[ray|raven]

^There's always a difference between an app written for a particular os,
and one written to do the job on any os you throw at it.
There's are a lot to consider.
The links you point show almost native widgets,but lack native images ,
this is because , a native app can use images from the os, but a cross-platform app cannot hard-code to use images from one os and hence has to bundles its own.

While i agree, native apps are a lot better than cross-platform ones,
try thinking as a developer, if you had to write an app for three os's ,
would you sit and write the same app thrice, or prefer to write it once?
Java is meant for cross platform apps, and if Java was brought to the iPhone,developers could modify existing apps to work with it, instead of starting one from scratch.

Speaking from my experience, its a joy seeing an app thats already coded, run on multiple os's without needing any kind of recompilation.

[aryayush]

Originally Posted by rayraven

^There's always a difference between an app written for a particular os,
and one written to do the job on any os you throw at it.
There's are a lot to consider.
The links you point show almost native widgets,but lack native images ,
this is because , a native app can use images from the os, but a cross-platform app cannot hard-code to use images from one os and hence has to bundles its own.

While i agree, native apps are a lot better than cross-platform ones,
try thinking as a developer, if you had to write an app for three os's ,
would you sit and write the same app thrice, or prefer to write it once?
Java is meant for cross platform apps, and if Java was brought to the iPhone,developers could modify existing apps to work with it, instead of starting one from scratch.

Exactly. That answers your own question. This is why cross-platform applications suck and this is why we don't want Java applications on the iPhone. If you've read the article I pointed you to, this is what the developer talks about too. An iPhone is an entirely different platform when compared to computers or other smart-phones. It's somewhere between the smart-phone and the computer and any developer wishing to code for it should whole-heartedly embrace Apple's own SDK and write native applications that look and function exactly like all the other applications on the iPhone. Java applications, no matter which platform they are on, stick out like sore thumbs and we'd prefer quality over quantity any day of the week.

[ray|raven]

Originally Posted by rayraven

...and if Java was brought to the iPhone,developers could modify existing apps to work with it, instead of starting one from scratch.

Donno, if you missed it or ignored it,
But here it is again, a jdk for iPhone would ease development.
like Porting already useful apps present for mobiles, without starting from scratch.

Also, its good to have alternatives,
its not like every person has to know objective-c just to develop apps for the iPhone.
What about existing developers who would just want to port their apps?

[aryayush]

I thought I answered that when I said that the iPhone is a different platform and we want applications tailor-made for it and from scratch. Either write them well or not at all. Simple as that.

Why do you think Mac OS X and Xcode have been chosen by Apple as the exclusive development environment for the iPhone? It has been done to weed out the Windows, Linux and Java developers from porting their applications onto the iPhone.

It's actually a difference in mentality. Your (and most Java developers') approach is that you should be able to have the functionality, even if it is crippled and looks ugly and doesn't integrate with the rest of the environment. But Apple's and most Mac users' mentality is that you either have the best or don't have it at all. There's no middle ground.

If you're the sort who is satisfied with stuff that isn't the best, then the iPhone is clearly not for you (and by 'you', I don't mean anyone in particular).

Maybe that's why Mac users are called snobs...

[ray|raven]

Originally Posted by aryayush

I thought I answered that when I said that the iPhone is a different platform and we want applications tailor-made for it and from scratch. Either write them well or not at all. Simple as that.

Writing well is dependent on the developer dude, even a great language can be made to turn up crappy programs in the hands of a wrong one.

Originally Posted by aryayush

It's actually a difference in mentality. Your (and most Java developers') approach is that you should be able to have the functionality, even if it is crippled and looks ugly and doesn't integrate with the rest of the environment. But Apple's and most Mac users' mentality is that you either have the best or don't have it at all. There's no middle ground.

I'd rather say give em both, and let them choose what they wanna use.
Like you have on OS X now, you dont like java apps, so you dont use it,
somebody else likes it, they use it.
The end choice likes with the user.
If the app rocks, it'll live, If not , whether its coded in obj-c or java,
its sure gonna die.
You say Azureus is ugly , still its got functionality , which is why its still a very live app.
And yeah, i'd focus on functionality first, Looks later.

Btw, you're talkin bout Mac user's here,
We got loads of folks(i've seen quite a few unlocked ones at my office)
using the iPhone, and though the majority might be mac users,
well they arent the only ones using it.
And did you by anychance use gmail's java client?
If you didnt , try using it, one of the best j2me apps IMO.


Btw, Hitboxx, please move this to Chit-Chat.
I dont think this discussion is needed in tech.news
Thanx