Linus Torvalds on Leopard File System: 'Complete and Utter Crap'

[soumya]

Linus Torvalds, the founder of Linux operating system, was in Melbourne last week for the linux.conf.au conference. He was invited to express a few thoughts regarding OS X versus Windows Vista in a wide-ranging interview. According to smh.com.au, Torvalds reckoned that Apple's overhyped operating system, OS X Leopard, was in some ways worse than Vista.

"I don't think they're equally flawed - I think Leopard is a much better system," said the creator of the Linux kernel. "(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary," he added.

Torvalds also expressed his discontent towards Apple's and Microsoft's attitude of constantly rolling out updates in a celebrating manner, according to smh.com.au, so that people are forced to upgrade, if they want to continue using the respective operating systems.

"An operating system should be completely invisible," he said. "To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment ... to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware." Which is of course true, but then again, nobody has to be like everybody else. Microsoft has its own way of turning things to their advantage, while Apple has a different yet almost equally successful approach. Apple folks, just as Microsoft's Bill Gates, started in the business driven by passion. Wanting to make a buck while at it isn't something to blame. Getting greedy, however, is. Think this is what Torvalds was hinting at?

Torvalds was proud to speak of his own operating system and its improving green credentials, mentioning the push into mobile devices (such as the One Laptop per Child project) and Asus' ultra-cheap Eee PC.

Linus believes that Asus' PC may be a sign that Asia's hardware makers are starting to bypass Western commercial operating systems, so they can get more control over their products, according to the same source.

"That's the primary area that open source (software like Linux) is useful. Software is really expensive to produce and takes years. If you're a hardware company you can't really afford that, you either have to be controlled from the outside or take a pre-existing software stack that you can make changes to."

Torvalds also stated that, although Linux has always lacked a good UI (user interface), he and his fellow programmers modified almost all of the operating system's core to improve power management, since "Everybody wants to be power-aware."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Linus...39-77967.shtml

[praka123]

Well,it seems he is on a row!

[techtronic]

Happy to see him quashing Apple along with Microsoft

[ray|raven]

Way to go Linus!

[The Outsider]

linux people have been freaking out too much lately

[drgrudge]

Let Linus Torvalds shut the flower up.

Torvalds also expressed his discontent towards Apple's and Microsoft's attitude of constantly rolling out updates in a celebrating manner, according to smh.com.au, so that people are forced to upgrade, if they want to continue using the respective operating systems.

Leopard is better than Tiger. 95% of the upgraders might be happy. It's true that new Mac are shipped with Leopard only but users are happy about it. I want to know if anyone here wants Tiger with a Mac now.

This situation is different from that of Windows. While you can run OS X, Windows and *nix in your Mac (and people don't buy to run Windows/*nix); the same is not possible in PCs. If you want to buy a PC and want to run *nix, you're wasting an OEM copy of Windows which prolly might have costed you around 4-5k. Also if you want to run XP, then you are forced to pay more or have no option but to digest Vista.


Again, Linus Torvalds shut the flower up. Mac users are happy with Apple and Leopard.

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by drgrudge

If you want to buy a PC and want to run *nix, you're wasting an OEM copy of Windows which prolly might have costed you around 4-5k. Also if you want to run XP, then you are forced to pay more or have no option but to digest Vista.

You can decline the license aggreement & get the money back.

Again, Linus Torvalds shut the flower up. Mac users are happy with Apple and Leopard.

After spending so much money on a Mac, Mac users have no option then to use Leopard

[drgrudge]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

You can decline the license aggreement & get the money back.

Lol man. Look who is talking. gx is planning to buy cr@pware (Read Dell + Windows). Look here:

Damn those Dell People, I guess informing them that I m a student in some college might be able to get me some discount, right? I will order the laptop after getting admission only so that I can show them admission slip etc if required to avail the discount if available.

He doesn't want the OS but have no option.

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

After spending so much money on a Mac, Mac users have no option then to use

Don't you ever read properly what I post?

I can run Windows and *nix along with my OS X. But I have only Leopard installed. Why settle for the rest, when you have the best?

And Mac users want Leopard, plus you don't buy a Mac to run Windows/*nix. So there's no question of forcing a OS on Mac users.

Next time, please read what others are posting.

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by drgrudge

Lol man. Look who is talking. gx is planning to buy cr@pware (Read Dell + Windows). Look here:

That so called crapware according to u is a better value for money, gives more performance then a Macbook (cos they are in similar price segment), Looks better (crimson). About installed software, well...you know us Windows users,,, we use our computer our way, that's why reinstall the OS from the OEM DVD & activate it & install the stuff u want. At least we Windows users know how our OS works inlike Mac users

He doesn't want the OS but have no option.

I don't want the OS because I already have 3 license of Vista Ultimate, 2 for Home premium with me. But if they are giving me Home premium then good....I get another license.

[~Phenom~]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

You can decline the license aggreement & get the money back.

How ??? I coudnt decline it(Dell guys said its mandatory) , when I got Vista Home premium on my dell 1520.

[kumarmohit]

And pray wat would youdo with 4 licenses?

open a cyber cafe?

[i_am_crack]

Cyber CAfe....Thatz for the safe side.. cause after 5 activations.. your key wil be accepted further...you know the OEM rules...

eBRo

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by ~Phenom~

How ??? I coudnt decline it(Dell guys said its mandatory) , when I got Vista Home premium on my dell 1520.

When that Dell service guy comes to your home for basic system installation, just decline to the License Agreement of Windows Vista & tell him you do not want to use this license, you already have a license. 2 of my friends were able to save Rs 4k like this (Home premium OEM)

And pray wat would youdo with 4 licenses?

If Dell doesn't remove the OEM OS, who cares. I will wipe the harddisk clean & install my own MSDN edition of Vista + SP1 & activate it. Like I said I have 3 Vista Ultimate license, 1 is in use in my home computer (the one i m working on), & 2 are spare.

However, if Dell gives me the OEM installation DVD which they will, I will simply format my HD, & reinstall Vista using that OEM DVD.

Or I can simply install Vista using my MSDN edition DVD & acvtivate using OEM key in case I do not get the OEM DVD.

P.S.- We are going off topic.

[goobimama]

The last thing Torvalds should be talking about is OS transparency. Every linux geek has always been 'working with linux'. They are happy with it, but they are always tweaking it, patching some code in, using terminal codes and whatnot. I hardly know any who actually use Linux for professional work (other than servers, but that's a totally different trip).

OS X is the most transparent OS out there. You don't get pop ups telling you that your pen drive has been detected. Another one that it's hardware is instaling, and a third one telling you that it's ready for use.

Btw, Dell does NOT sell their machines without Windows on them. I even asked about this declining the license thing and they said no. I would have to return the entire machine within their 7 day policy (and some 10% restocking fee I think).

[mediator]

U know reading about some technical terminology can always help. I know many OSX users don't like to learn anything, but still it can make u look well "not lame"!! Please read what these "transparencies" like OS tranparency actually mean!!

[goobimama]

Uh. What did I mean by OS transparency? If you thought I meant window transparency, then I assure you it was not what I meant. And in that area, Windows Vista rules, with it's aero glass thing. I was talking about the OS taking a background, and the task taking foreground.

And it's not like I don't know some stuff about the OS as well. Just that I don't go way into technical details about why a "ANCP variation conflicts with the DRP settings" (the example is totally made up)

[mediator]

Then u wud be very happy to detail what this verse of urs has anything to do with "OS transparency"

but they are always tweaking it, patching some code in, using terminal codes and whatnot.

Its like someone say, "What r these experts sitting on PC doing 24*7". They r just wasting their time!

[vaithy]

Originally Posted by ~Phenom~

How ??? I coudnt decline it(Dell guys said its mandatory) , when I got Vista Home premium on my dell 1520.

Exatly true.. when I purchase my compaq laptop, telling the dealer I don't want vista, since I am installing linux,I am returning the license. he told, that it is not possible... Now most of the people only option to install Linux in preinstalled vista is format and wipe out/ or make necesary partition and install Linux and use it.. We consider the money paid for vista is money paid to M$ empire to enjoy our freedom,
one day we hope, the Windows TAx, payable to Ballmer &co will stop,till the time, we will teach our children, what sort of slavery that the software world is suffering, what sort of war is going on..
" to be free.. or not to be free.., "and we may raise the hope for them,

'Listen son!! to day we are paying to M$ empire,to morrow hopefully will be yours..


Vaithy

[drgrudge]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

When that Dell service guy comes to your home for basic system installation, just decline to the License Agreement of Windows Vista & tell him you do not want to use this license, you already have a license. 2 of my friends were able to save Rs 4k like this (Home premium OEM)

I'm 99% sure it can't be done. In my office, we have some contract with MS n buy volume Licenses to be installed in our PCs. We buy Lappies as well, so if you don't want licence (we have a volume licence for 50 PCs or so), Dell doesn't sell with crapware installed.

I think you're lying when you tell you were able to save 4k. Dell, Dubai DO NOT sell without Windows and I think it's the same here as well.

I like to prove me wrong. But Dell XPS and get that 4k back. Post back with the proof.

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

That so called crapware according to u is a better value for money, gives more performance then a Macbook (cos they are in similar price segment), Looks better (crimson).

LMAO.

I've still my PC and work on it sometimes. I've had a Dell Laptop as well. Do think I was born with a Mac. I can assure that my Mac is the best PC that I've purchased. I don't mean what performance you want.

I agree that Apple is not VFM. IMO, it's expensive. But on the longer run, you get to benefit. Your Mac resell value is more. I've a friend who says he'll buy my Mac for 75k. I brought for 72k. See the threads in Bazaar, when a guy (he was DJ) looking to buy a Mac and ready to part with a decent money - something which is impossible for a Windows PC.

Also no need to worry about Viruses and such. How much time have you spend on formatting and installing crapwares? Time is money.

Better design and looks good than a Mac? In your wet dream dude. Dream on. Sony Vaio is the next to Apple Macs in terms of design. XPS and this Acer Ferrari/Asus Lamborgini is ugly, IMO.

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

I don't want the OS because I already have 3 license of Vista Ultimate, 2 for Home premium with me. But if they are giving me Home premium then good....I get another license.

I don't care how much licences you have. The point is you don't want another Vista. Thats in your case. Many others want to install *nix. The point is you don't have option and Vista is forced. Linus was right.

[praka123]

assembling laptops-this should come if u want to buy a laptop with vista(crapware).we are giving ransom money buying a laptop with vista!
else wed have been raided everytime by M$haft.

@grudge:ur sig is a tamil song?

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by vaithy

We consider the money paid for vista is money paid to M$ empire to enjoy our freedom,

Nope, Compaq, HP etc get OEM edition of the OS which costs much less then the real retail OS. Dell gets Windows Vista Home premium OEM for $80. The money u pay is to Dell not Microsoft cos u r buying a Microsoft OS from a Dell shop (Example)

Originally Posted by drgrudge

I think you're lying when you tell you were able to save 4k. Dell, Dubai DO NOT sell without Windows and I think it's the same here as well.

I like to prove me wrong. But Dell XPS and get that 4k back. Post back with the proof.

Sure

[drgrudge]

Originally Posted by praka123

@grudge:ur sig is a tamil song?

Yeah. Shankar's Anniyan. "Kannum kannum Nokia" keturkingla? Yippo roomba Hindi sigs and other lang sig, adanala ethu.

[goobimama]

Originally Posted by mediator

Then u wud be very happy to detail what this verse of urs has anything to do with "OS transparency"
Quote:
but they are always tweaking it, patching some code in, using terminal codes and whatnot.
Its like someone say, "What r these experts sitting on PC doing 24*7". They r just wasting their time!

I'm serious. I know like 6 linux geeks. Whenever I meet them, they are always showing me some new beryl install where a window goes up in flames, or some network tweaks or something. Then the guy talks about terminal codes and all that. And of course, he will also for once make his linux desktop look exactly like a mac desktop and smirk. Sure they do work on it as well, I don't seriously think that they are forever tweaking.

But if you look at the three systems, there's a lot of tweaking and settings going on in Linux. The fact of which is evident from the numerous settings that come along with any linux app/distro.

So where does this leave us with transparency? OS X comes with all it's settings optimised after what I assume is a lot of market research. So there's not much to tweak, and Mac users are generally happy about the settings. Can't say the same about Linux (talk about driver hunts, getting WINE installed, and I don't know what else).

[MetalheadGautham]

OK guys, let me tell you this thing: An Operating System must, as linus rightly says, be as invisible and as transparent as possible. But it does not mean that it must be stupidly advertising upgrades and forcing people to buy an upgrade.

Apple was very good in the begining. Their objective was to create an almost invisible OS, like how Linus now supports. But over the years, the OS has detoriated a lot in that feild. Originally, it was the ideal OS in my opinion. It was installed in a ROM, and this made booting up a real fast experience. But now its just like windows, coming installed in HDD. Look at the EEE PC. They once again went back to the past ways, by placing the main OS in a locked flash partition(almost like a ROM) and the configuration files are in another partition, this way, the OS loads extremely fast. Look at the new Linoups. They are devices with the OS(linux) in a Flash and the user files in a HDD, along with configuration files. Linux is fast becoming an OS that Mac was once about to become, but changed course.

Now all we need is for linux vendors like Red Hat, Canonical, Mandriva Soft, etc to shift from developing the OS(which can be done by the community) to developing professional softwares, which if done, will result in Mac and Windows having their market shares cut to less than half their current one in a span of 7 years.

And yes, if you want to really see how good/bad the filesystems of Windows(NTFS), Mac(???) and Linux(ext3) are, just head over to the below thread and follow the instructions
Urban Terror - Where Quake Meets Reality

@ Grudge: Mac is what it is only because of looks and all the apps in iLife that are not available anywhere else. The naming of stuff in the apple is also an important part for its selling. Please don't flame great people like Linux Torvaldis, who are experts in OS technology, and are much above us.

@ Saurav: Windows is a topic that has been covered countless number of times. So please don't try to use the same points again and again. All of them have been delt with by lots of guys.

@ Soumya: Why won't you stop targeting Linux, Mac and Windows ? Almost all your threads deal with some sensitive windows or mac or linux issue and we have a flame war

@All: Apple hardware isn't half bad, if apple wasn't so ignorant of the fact that cost plays a major factor in popularity. Infact, look at this quote from apple's website:

Originally Posted by Fools at Apple's Website

Better bang-to-buck ratio.

The most advanced and affordable Mac notebook ever gives you a blazingly fast mobile architecture in a beautiful design that costs less than slower, clunkier models. It’s like getting a sports car for the price of a scooter.

Does that make even little sence ? look at the following specs:
http://www.asia.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

And look at the price:
http://www.apple.co.in/store/

Are apple really ignorant, or big liars, or both ? For iLife that Apple provides, even if you include its Rs. 4000/- cost in proper Books, MacBooks cost a lot more.

Originally Posted by goobimama

I'm serious. I know like 6 linux geeks. Whenever I meet them, they are always showing me some new beryl install where a window goes up in flames, or some network tweaks or something. Then the guy talks about terminal codes and all that. And of course, he will also for once make his linux desktop look exactly like a mac desktop and smirk. Sure they do work on it as well, I don't seriously think that they are forever tweaking.

But if you look at the three systems, there's a lot of tweaking and settings going on in Linux. The fact of which is evident from the numerous settings that come along with any linux app/distro.

So where does this leave us with transparency? OS X comes with all it's settings optimised after what I assume is a lot of market research. So there's not much to tweak, and Mac users are generally happy about the settings. Can't say the same about Linux (talk about driver hunts, getting WINE installed, and I don't know what else).

thats because you are describing linux Geek version, which all geeks like to use. Linux also has "normal" releases in distros.

[mediator]

Originally Posted by goobiamma

I'm serious. I know like 6 linux geeks. Whenever I meet them, they are always showing me some new beryl install where a window goes up in flames, or some network tweaks or something. Then the guy talks about terminal codes and all that. And of course, he will also for once make his linux desktop look exactly like a mac desktop and smirk. Sure they do work on it as well, I don't seriously think that they are forever tweaking.

But if you look at the three systems, there's a lot of tweaking and settings going on in Linux. The fact of which is evident from the numerous settings that come along with any linux app/distro.

So where does this leave us with transparency? OS X comes with all it's settings optimised after what I assume is a lot of market research. So there's not much to tweak, and Mac users are generally happy about the settings. Can't say the same about Linux (talk about driver hunts, getting WINE installed, and I don't know what else).

And u call this "tweaking", "optimization" as a hindrance to OS transparency?? If u r telling that those 6 linux geeks telling u bt beryl etc has anything to do with OS transparency then u must be kidding!!

Let me give u some idea what transparency means.

* A person sitting on his PC having linux installed, gets software updates, does his work without even knowing that updates have been done

* U completely reconfigure ur main server, start ftp and ssh also without having to restart the machine or disrupting the work of others logged on that machine

* U simply restart the network of that machine by issuing "service network restart" WITHOUT EVEN GETTING DISCONNECTED!!
i.e U have 1000s of logged on users connected to net and u just upgraded the network and restarted it without disrupting their work!!

* U install many new applications without acknowledging other users (logged or connected) bt the change.

I dunno bt OSX, bt on windows count how many times u have to restart
* I install/unintall Bitdefender -> restart
* I upgrade to IE7 -> restart
* I upgrade/remove servers -> restart
* Driver installation -> restart
* etc

Remember its the 'kernel upgrade' where Linux needs restart and this is the area where all the OSs need restart!! Also remember kernel upgrade is usually done when more hardware support is needed, else when everything is supported and works, u don't have to upgrade even the kernel!!

I remember I have tweaked many servers, created basic firewall rulezz without any complaints or noise from any of the 50+ users connected to that machine!!

I hope u got some idea! Now please enlighten me how Linus is wrong and how coding/tweaking obstructs OS tranparency as u said!!

[gxsaurav]

Wait....that's what makes Linux a transparent OS?

Originally Posted by mediator

* A person sitting on his PC having linux installed, gets software updates, does his work without even knowing that updates have been done.

Windows Update automatically downlods & install the updates & replaces the files when u reboot (Even if u reboot after a week)

* U completely reconfigure ur main server, start ftp and ssh also without having to restart the machine or disrupting the work of others logged on that machine

Windows Server 2003 & 2008.

* U simply restart the network of that machine by issuing "service network restart" WITHOUT EVEN GETTING DISCONNECTED!!
i.e U have 1000s of logged on users connected to net and u just upgraded the network and restarted it without disrupting their work!!

No idea

* U install many new applications without acknowledging other users (logged or connected) bt the change.

I dunno bt OSX, bt on windows count how many times u have to restart
* I install/unintall Bitdefender -> restart
* I upgrade to IE7 -> restart
* I upgrade/remove servers -> restart
* Driver installation -> restart
* etc

Or, learn how to use Windows, & follow this.

* Install, IE 7, Bit defender, drivers, upgrade/remove server -> reboot

I remember I have tweaked many servers, created basic firewall rulezz without any complaints or noise from any of the 50+ users connected to that machine!!

Ya...same here, GPEdit.msc on Windows Server 2000/2003 & now in 2008.

So, isn't Windows equally transparent.

[din]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Or, learn how to use Windows, & follow this.

* Install, IE 7, Bit defender, drivers, upgrade/remove server -> reboot

I am not a win expert and I may be wrong too. But most of the win installations / program installations / driver / upgrades give a nice message window which shows - It is recommended to reboot your system. Press OK to reboot.

If it is perfectly ok to reboot only after doing everything, then may be we should sue these companies (including MS) for misleading us I mean no need to reboot but they show the recommendation message. Strange !

[a_k_s_h_a_y]

lol .. fun

[mediator]

Windows Update automatically downlods & install the updates & replaces the files when u reboot (Even if u reboot after a week)

Sure, is there a need to tell me explicitly bt it? "Restart Later/Now"??

Windows Server 2003 & 2008.

I experienced it in XP server. Its a good thing if such a small thing is rectified!

No idea

I'm not even arguing if u have this or not in windows! But this is what u can call an "OS tranparency"!!

Or, learn how to use Windows, & follow this.

* Install, IE 7, Bit defender, drivers, upgrade/remove server -> reboot

I thought u knew the meaning of "OS tranparency"!!

Ya...same here, GPEdit.msc on Windows Server 2000/2003 & now in 2008.

So, isn't Windows equally transparent.

gpedit/msconfig etc => changes => pop up => reboot later/now!! The line in bold is an amusing comment!



+
* Services to be independent of GUI => form tranparency
I kill X and still others can continue their work.

In windows
I logoff/login and network "resarts"!! All the necessary services "restart" on a logoff/login!....Not to mention bt Disk defragement!!

Just use ur "common sense", to have some remote idea what the word tells u => "OS tranparency"

@GX : U need fine experience with linux/*nix/servers before u jump here and talk bt 'OS tranparency'!! But sure u can tell bt OSX as I know nuthing bt it and how many times it "offers u to reboot/logoff/annoys u......like some OS change happened"!!

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by din

I am not a win expert and I may be wrong too. But most of the win installations / program installations / driver / upgrades give a nice message window which shows - It is recommended to reboot your system. Press OK to reboot.

They give u an option like "restart now or later?". Just click on later & keep doing your work. Just have a look at my tutorial for using Windows Vista, if you follow that...u only need 2 reboots for the whole process.

Even if you get the "Click ok to reboot", just ignore that Window & continue doing your work & install the other things.

If it is perfectly ok to reboot only after doing everything, then may be we should sue these companies (including MS) for misleading us I mean no need to reboot but they show the recommendation message. Strange !

Things are different in case of Vista now. You can install all the drivers, updates, applications etc at one go, & reboot finally. Vista will not replace critical files unless u reboot.

Originally Posted by mediator

I experienced it in XP server. Its a good thing if such a small thing is rectified!

XP server???? Which OS is that....as far as I know it is only XP Home & Pro

I'm not even arguing if u have this or not in windows! But this is what u can call an "OS tranparency"!!

I meant "I don't know anything about this"

Services to be independent of GUI => form tranparency
I kill X and still others can continue their work.

Now implemented in Windows Server 2008