Linux makes inroads into Microsoft's domain

[din]

Source

While it has an over 20 per cent market share when we speak of servers in India, the free OS called Linux has just around 5 per cent market share in the country when it comes to desktops -- the lion's share going to Microsoft Windows. The scenario is gradually changing, it appears.

Novell along with the Electronics Corporation of Tamil Nadu is installing Suse Linux in around 40,000 desktops in the entire state.

And a corporate video of how elcot migrated to linux. - Here

[kumarmohit]

Its a start, just a start (though if I recall, each year there are 3 starts like this)

[Garbage]

ohh yeh, I seen how ELCOT migrated to SuSE in OSS conference - Ahmedabad.

They provide Windows computer only if they give a written reason to do so.

[praka123]

nice!

[gxsaurav]

It does makes sence in goverment PCs, as they run only one application whole day

[din]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

It does makes sence in goverment PCs, as they run only one application whole day

Exactly. For running just Office software or just one or two apps, why spending a lot, I mean why paying lot to MS ?

I will tell you a real-world example, this is not copied form anywhere, I know the person involved very well.

The guy - who was an officer in a reputed Bank in Cochin, Kerala came to know that the management is planning to buy MS Office for a lot of PCs where the requirement was just office software and nothing else. The quote was some lakhs.

The person met the officials in management and explained them how teh cost can be reduced a lot by using Star office (Yes, if I remember correctly it was free then).

And result ? The management was about to go with the guy, but he got a 'Nice Promotion' (with transfer to another state of course) before he could do anything. He was a nice person and money was not the main thing for him, but the transfer was un-avoidable and he had to go.

Morale of the story

1. Some still think we need to spend a lot for MS or other OS and pay for MS Office or similar just for office works

2. The big companies know how to handle people nicely !

Yes, Linux is not the best thing or there are lot of places where we can't use Linux, but there are places where we can use Linux and save a lot of $$$$.

I think I mentined before, two of my clients use Linux in their office, they use max of open source programs and they are not geeks too ! Just coz Linux work for their needs.

[gxsaurav]

it does makes sence to use Linux in such places due to the modularity of Linux. Microsoft is doing the same with Windows server 2008 & Vista/Windows 7. You only install what u need. Some underlaying technologies will be there always (DirectX, DirectShow, Trident, indigo) but unless you don't need them, you don't have to pay for them.

Example- Windows server 2008 comes without Windows Media server. If u need it, buy it. No need to pay a high initial price.

Infact, it makes lots of sense to shift to Linux in all offices, if all they run is one app. Usually these companies use there own software which is made by some 3rd party software company like Avaya, or TCS then why not tell them to make a Linux version? In today's world creating a standalone software isn't that tough with Mono, JAVA & .net 2005.

What MS should do is to provide a stripped down, Office node version of Windows with only few things. Who needs Windows Media Player in Office? Just don't strip down Solitaire

[din]

Yes, agree with you. In most offices or shops, the main requirement will be like not a lot of things. May be just for billing, may be just for accounting. So they will not need all functionalities of any OS

And just comparing the prices

Win XP + Office = 3500 + ?

Lin + Open Office = 100 + 100 may be ? I mean 2 Digit DVDs

[praka123]

^btwn i hv seem sbi employees playing solitaire with xp though they wont miss it in linux.

@din:but there is very high resistance from windows proficient people,eventhough Linux is better and more suited for their business.

[mediator]

A stripped down OS becomes boring sometimes when ur work is complete in office and ur mind is working high! Those who work in PHP i.e LAMP etc, listen to music while working, keep their messenger ON, send some reports in word format, keep on fiddling with OS by executing the thousands of commands and customising their desktops!! They even watch movies,clips,youtube etc.

Such kind of work if done with licensed copies of MS products will only add more $$$$. I don't agree on using a stripped down OS while working like that on development! It tends to get very boring then and its better if u r not bored while u r working!!

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by din

And just comparing the prices

Win XP + Office = 3500 + ?

Lin + Open Office = 100 + 100 may be ? I mean 2 Digit DVDs

Thats the thing. The cost of Windows is according to doller, not rupees. Due to which we pay lots of money for it.

Just bundle Windows XP for legecy PCs + Microsoft Office student edition = Rs 2500. Everyone will buy for offices

Originally Posted by praka123

@din:but there is very high resistance from windows proficient people.

Simple, Windows is workin for them, Microsoft supports there problem, there software runs in Windows, so why change?

Computers in convergYs guregaon are still using Windows 2000 FYI

A stripped down OS becomes boring sometimes when ur work is complete in office and ur mind is working high! Those who work in PHP i.e LAMP etc, listen to music while working, keep their messenger ON, send some reports in word format, keep on fiddling with OS by executing the thousands of commands and customising their desktops!! They even watch movies,clips,youtube etc.

You go to an office to work, to work on the software or make memos or whatever. You are not supposed to use Office resources for ourkutting , or chatting. Yup, it is bad & feels boring, but thats how I believe you can make an office productive.

You wanna timepass, do that in breaks

[mediator]

U r getting me wrong! I dont let those things come in between/ruin my work. The boss knows it all!! The work becomes exciting when the office is happening, people r nice and more over when u can entertain urself on ur PC itself like I said above. Playing just solitaire etc becomes montonous and boring. Ur effiiceny rises when u r not bored, when u like ur work and office environment and more over when u can do anything on ur PC for a few minutes while having ur cup of coffee!! Now dont say that coffee isn't allowed too and that u shud only do ur work!

I guess u r not accustomed to the office environment. Nobody minds it if u r working on schedule and nicely!! Go to any company and u'll find a lotta people orkutting. Thats a reality. Companies might ban orkut on their network, but people still find ways to entertain themselves like listeing to music or flirting with....ahem!!

Banning orkut is still ok, coz it wastes a lotta time, but a stripped down OS .....no way!! Do u really think working 24/7 increases efficiency? Man, a little mozart for 5 mintues while working is the ultimate refreshment.....game playing is ok but that becomes monotonous and hence something more and then back to work!!

[din]

@mediator , agree with you.

Rt now, running 3 messenger, workin on LAMP, uploading / downloadin files usin Filezilla, listening to music. Not affectin job

But I use messengers for official purpose most of the time, to chat with clients etc. But normal employees will not need chat and yes, banning Orkut in offices can be justified.

And most of the software firms here in Cochin (some of my friends are running s/w firms in infopark etc) has speakers and play music almost all the time.

But again, it depends, it may be a problem for work which need high level concentration and some people can't work listening to music.

[mediator]

Thats correct. When u r fresher, u need to know ur work right and thats the time when ur concentration level is at the highest. When u get experienced and doing ur normal work, u keep on coding etc without even giving a second thought to it! It becomes natural as breathing and thats the time when u need entertainment while working so as to keep going!! U become confident. U know when to fiddle, when to njoy and when to work!!

A stripped down OS has no place there. On windows too u'll mostly find, in companies, yahoo msngr,WMP latest, codecs, games, Office etc all installed on machines!! But there resides the difference of $$$$.

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by mediator

The work becomes exciting when the office is happening, people r nice and more over when u can entertain urself on ur PC itself like I said above.

A stripped down OS doesn't actually means no WMP. It was just an example. I guess no one will allow an employee to play music on the speakers during work, headphones are fine. This is the reason why I said such companies should switch to Thin Clients. They will further save on OS costs.

I guess u r not accustomed to the office environment. Nobody minds it if u r working on schedule and nicely!! Go to any company and u'll find a lotta people orkutting. Thats a reality. Companies might ban orkut on their network, but people still find ways to entertain themselves like listeing to music or flirting with....ahem!!

Tell me about it,:d

Stripped down OS .....no way!!!

Yes way, it depends how & where u r stripping. Even on Windows XP Pro running in such companies, Admins block Wmplayer.exe or application installation or ability to run any application other then those white listed. So, as you see there is already stripping of functionality......what I mean was give a stripped down OS, & then the admins can decide what to add & what not to & pay only for what they need.

[infra_red_dude]

whatever, i think all the govt. organisations should switch to linux system. it'll save us from paying heavy taxes!!! the railway reservation counters still use dos based software which can be verywell run in dosemu or dosbox and lotsa other examples. it'll save the country a huge sum, benifitting everyone linux will give them everything that they need, an office suite, dos emulation software and even games which are jus rite for the office environment!!!

[mediator]

Yes way, it depends how & where u r stripping. Even on Windows XP Pro running in such companies, Admins block Wmplayer.exe or application installation or ability to run any application other then those white listed. So, as you see there is already stripping of functionality......what I mean was give a stripped down OS, & then the admins can decide what to add & what not to & pay only for what they need.

Yes! Pay for what is needed on 'M$-windows'. But, I am talking of 'keep on exploring what 'all' u already have', keep on exploring when u feel like having a vacation for few minutes, fiddle with the system, njoy music etc and then back to work!!

There is a big difference between 'paying for what is needed on a stripped down OS' and 'exploring what all u have, what all the OS offers u' and thats how the work becomes more exciting and njoyable......i.e to pursue ur interests while still doing ur work!!

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by mediator

Yes! Pay for what is needed on 'M$-windows'. But, I am talking of 'keep on exploring what 'all' u already have', keep on exploring when u feel like having a vacation for few minutes, fiddle with the system, njoy music etc and then back to work!!

sorry, you are not supposed to play with an office computer & tinker with it. I don't know of any company so far which allows u to do that.

to pursue ur interests while still doing ur work!!

If the Admin find it suitable & appropriate, they will let you use Windows Media player for Music, some messenger like Pidgin or Yahoo for chatting etc. You are working in an office where you have to follow the working rules set by the authority & Admin. Sorry, but you just can't go on & tweak your OS to your liking here. You are given a computer where you can do your work fine, you can chat, play lite games etc if the Admin allows. This isn't your personal computer to tinker with.

[Charan]

How many guys actually watched that video? if not then watch it ..

Those guys were not just talking about Open office and playing games or chatting!!! they are developing webbased apps secure apps. They are talking postGRE SQL for backend , Eclipse , NETBeans , JasperReports .. creating drivers and custom fonts. They have even developed the worlds first ATM's running completely on linux. They have not shifted to linux just to save cost. They are very serious about the migration to linux.

Give way... TUX is comming

[mediator]

sorry, you are not supposed to play with an office computer & tinker with it. I don't know of any company so far which allows u to do that.

U need to start working first cutie pie before saying that u don't know of any company like that!! I hope ur exams r over!

If the Admin find it suitable & appropriate, they will let you use Windows Media player for Music, some messenger like Pidgin or Yahoo for chatting etc. You are working in an office where you have to follow the working rules set by the authority & Admin. Sorry, but you just can't go on & tweak your OS to your liking here. You are given a computer where you can do your work fine, you can chat, play lite games etc if the Admin allows. This isn't your personal computer to tinker with

Who is asking to "tinker and tweak the system" ? My dear, fiddling with system doesn't necessarily means hacking the system, changing the config files and installing rootkits! It also means to change the desktop, exploring the themes, the commands, man pages, the content of system's shell scripts, making shell scripts etc....I hope u know about the learning curve associated with Linux. Wth, who will tinker/tweak the system like that even after knowing about the consequences of even little mistakes?

U shud know that on Linux unlike windows u can do all ur work without having root priviledges. U can even compile programs and run them without the root access. Only the system/admin level activities/programs require u to have root priviledges and even on that if u have admin's trust u can have it!!

I am definitely not asking to run ethereal, spy on the network and hack the company for the sake of phun!!


So there is bigggg difference between 'paying for what is needed on a stripped down OS' and 'exploring what all u have, what all the OS offers u'. If u equate the windows phun with that of linux for such, then the difference is of huge amt of $$$$! Besides windows hardly has any learning curve associated with it...you can't even see the source code of any application and learn from it!!

But dont let that sadden u. U can ofcors install GAIM,GIMP and OOO on windows tooo if not photoshop and MS-office becoz of their $$$$! WTH, why not use the total OSS package, learn to make urself more efficient in computing world via commandlines and make ur work more njoyable ??

[Charan]

Offtopic: regarding "tinker and tweak the system" . I had copied a few official photos to my system from a CD and made a shared folder and gave link to my collegues, even my boss wanted to see the pics.

Result: The admin reported to my TL saying that I misused my local admin previlages to enable the USB port and copy those photos

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by mediator

U need to start working first cutie pie before saying that u don't know of any company like that!! I hope ur exams r over!

All the companies I have work in or worked for in deployment, did not allow the employees to change Windows OS settings. This was prohibited.

It also means to change the desktop, exploring the themes, the commands, man pages, the content of system's shell scripts, making shell scripts etc....I hope u know about the learning curve associated with Linux

You are talking about systems running Linux here, I m talking about systems running Windows here. Obviously changing the wallpaper or theme etc is allowed, thats a simple thing on a network based user.,

Besides windows hardly has any learning curve associated with it...you can't even see the source code of any application and learn from it!!

You go to office to work, not to learn an OS or man pages.

[mediator]

All the companies I have work in or worked for in deployment, did not allow the employees to change Windows OS settings. This was prohibited.

I understand. Thats why I shifted to Linux becoz even a little fiddling with that genuine/original bloated OS gave me BSODs! May be u have to use too much "common sense", have a vison of future and think of all the possible seen and unforeseen events before fidlling with it!!

Companies very well understand the gravity of the situation when its windows u know!!

You are talking about systems running Linux here, I m talking about systems running Windows here. Obviously changing the wallpaper or theme etc is allowed, thats a simple thing on a network based user.,

Obviously!! U do not need to tell what side u were talking of and what I was when the debate started warming up!! The difference of $$$$, stripped down OS, and 'explore what u have, what all OS offers'.....remember what we were talking? U can still read the previous replies if u forgot what we were discussing!

You go to office to work, not to learn an OS or man pages.

You said that before too, no need to repeat! People do listen to music, surf orkut and flirt too in offices after all!!

Well this little chat is getting boring coz u have started repeating so early. WTH!!

[din]

Some examples :

1 . LIC migrated to Linux . Savings = 2 million !

2. Asian Paints India Limited moved to Linux

3. UTI moved / moving completely to Linux

4. All high schools in Kerala migrating to Linux

5. IDBI, Kotak and finally Central Bank of India - move started

6. Schools are into Linux - Tamilnadu

It may be slow, but the migration is there in India. And for India Linux / Open source is the BEST option as it saves a lot of $$$$.

I didn't put link to all the points above, but if you google, it will show full details of all the points.

[gxsaurav]

I understand. Thats why I shifted to Linux becoz even a little fiddling with that genuine/original bloated OS gave me BSODs!

Not quite, if you tinker properly it won't hurt. However, the last thing a system Admin wants in an office is a non-working computer & downtime. Employee goes to office to work on the computer, not to fiddle with it. He is not supposed to learn the basics of computing to work on it. Stop treating computers like geek device, & start treating them like consumer devices.

The difference of $$$$, stripped down OS, and 'explore what u have, what all OS offers'

A stripped down OS doesn't necessarily means a limited OS. You know about Windows XP embedded or for Legecy PCs? You can install any Win32 application on it.

Originally Posted by din

And for India Linux / Open source is the BEST option as it saves a lot of $$$$.

Actually No, Suppose UTI migrates to Linux but the software for banking which they use is based on Windows, then?

This is where cross platform applications (JAVA) or Web based application (Finnacle in SPI Bank) come into play. However most of these companies are using older version of Windows like Windows 98 or 2000 which works fine for them. They bought it "then" for a price & still using it, the initial cost is recovered by now.....so continue using it. If all they need to run is one particular application then why not stick to the system they have? My dad was working on a Pentium Pro 200 MHz CPU with Windows 98 & 64 MB RAM computer in his office, which is over 10 years old before they bought new HP computers with Windows XP, cos it was working fine for them. With HP, they got XP for quite a lot of discount.

[din]

No, I was mentioning the 'migration' and new systems, not about they using the present system / OLD PC.

For examples, computer came to schools in Kerala recently only (not in central schools, but the state schools), so going for legal win in every PC will cost them a lot and the syllabus is best suited for LIN too, so the best option is LIN, it saves a lot of $$$

For banks, if they are using win 95 and any old banking s/w for the last 10 or 15 yrs, and decide to continue with that, nothing wrong in that as they are not spending additional $$$. But truth is, they are opening new branches, they are buying additional PCs, they are making / upgrading / buying new softwares for banking, so they will have to think of buying OS as well. Again $$$ matters.

And yes, if the banking software works on Win only, then there is no option than usin Win.

My point is there are a lot of places where Lin can very easily replace Win, saving lot of $$$

I go for this logic

100 XP = 3500 x 100

100 Lin = 50 x 100, may be less as a single CD/ DVD can be used to install in more than one PC.

So why spending a lot when

a. It is not needed

b. Alternative is there with a much much low cost

[gxsaurav]

Originally Posted by din

the syllabus is best suited for LIN too, so the best option is LIN

This is a specific requirment.

But truth is, they are opening new branches, they are buying additional PCs, they are making / upgrading / buying new softwares for banking, so they will have to think of buying OS as well. Again $$$ matters.

Keep in mind that free Linux distro provide no phone support or technician when required, if you want them you have to pay or get a paid linux distro like Red Hat. If you are paying anyway, then why go Linux when Windows is so commonly used & required hardly any training?

And yes, if the banking software works on Win only, then there is no option than usin Win.

There is Wine, but it might or might not always work. It makes sense to tell the 3rd party companies to use .net to make the software as later on it can be used on Linux using Mono

My point is there are a lot of places where Lin can very easily replace Win, saving lot of $$$

This depends on where you are using the software

b. Alternative is there with a much much low cost

I know computer, you know computer, what about everyone else? Don't forget to add training cost & support cost if you are migrating to Linux. Fixing Windows is very easy, at least it has safe mode. What bout Linux? in case of problem, it gives the command line interface, how is someone supposed to fix it without any technician.

[din]

Hmm

I think it is getting diverted again. Well ..

My main point is still valid

My point is there are a lot of places where Lin can very easily replace Win, saving lot of $$$

1. Yes, there are lot of places. I didn't say we should change all PCs in India to Lin. But there are places. And of course we can save $$$

Regarding support / training

2 type of users

1. Basic user - Shop owners etc. When their PC is not working, they will never try to repair it their own. They will call the repair guy, in the case of Lin, they can call a Lin expert. Yes, all PC experts are not very good in Lin, that is a fact though

2. Big comapnies - Big companies migrating to Lin wil lhave their own staff experts in that, still they save a lot. How did LIC saved millions using Linux ? I think they use paid Linux, still saved a lot. That is a point.

Fixing win is easy - Hmm, not always - for the basic users. As you mentioned, we may know it, but basic user will think its too complicated and - Booting in safe mode - will not solve all the problems.

[mediator]

Not quite, if you tinker properly it won't hurt. However, the last thing a system Admin wants in an office is a non-working computer & downtime. Employee goes to office to work on the computer, not to fiddle with it. He is not supposed to learn the basics of computing to work on it. Stop treating computers like geek device, & start treating them like consumer devices.

Who is asking to 'learn the basics'? Don't u understand the difference between 'paying for what is needed' and 'exploring what all u have'? In the meantime u can also turn ON beryl and check out the beryl features. Its not gonna delete ur user profile u know! You can explore and learn more what all u have! Its NOT called 'learning the basics'!!

On windows, the aero and the huge amt of $$$$. WTH!!

A stripped down OS doesn't necessarily means a limited OS. You know about Windows XP embedded or for Legecy PCs? You can install any Win32 application on it.

What about MS-products like MS-office...more $$$$? Neways u can read u know before talking of legacy PCs!

Originally Posted by source

Key features

* Consumes by default less RAM than full Windows XP Professional
* Supports most XP applications
* Supports basic networking features
* Supports most XP drivers
* Updates older machines to modern security specifications
* Supports DirectX (Installed with Media Support / DirectX upon OS installation)
* Supports extended peripherals such as mouse, keyboard

Issues and limitations

* Dial-up networking and terminal based connections are not supported
* May have compatibility issues with some programs
* May have problems with old drivers
* Installation requires full disk format
* Does not include the Joystick calibration control panel (JOY.CPL)
* Does not include the NULL.SYS software device (used by Cygwin to implement /dev/null)[4]
* Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs is not recommended to non-English users, since they must install the MUI (Multilingual User Interface) pack, which can cause some errors while operating.

U talk about stripped down OS not necessarily meaning a limited OS and then talk about legacy PCs? Neways u shud now read what embedded systems are!

So instead of wasting time on orkut, flirting with ahem and playing stupid solitaire one can instead increase his knowledge, do somethin constructive u know and increase his computing efficiency! When its MS-windows its more of $$$$, but no real learning curve!!

I know computer, you know computer, what about everyone else? Don't forget to add training cost & support cost if you are migrating to Linux. Fixing Windows is very easy, at least it has safe mode. What bout Linux? in case of problem, it gives the command line interface, how is someone supposed to fix it without any technician.

Did u forget what system admins are for? Please dont form the notion that they r there in the company to serve tea!! And please dont start the Win VS Lin fight, we all know which OS is out there in majority forming servers. Did u really think they can't be repaired? U shud really do some reading as far as Linux is concerned.....may be during ur working hours, instead of orkutting, i.e learning! So u see learning is neva a waste!!

If u wanna know how to fix it, then do open up the Open source section daily from now on. As far as windows is concerned, do I have to remind that most people, i.e end-users, don't even know how to install it? Well if u forgot those little chit-chats then do go to the IT colleges and ask how many computer students themselves have ever installed windows or know of installing it. Forget about repairing it then and forget about end-users if many CS students themselves dont know how to install windows. So u see in both the cases we need an admin called a system admin!!

[din]

One more 'small step'

Allahabad high court uses and recommends Open sourced softwares and standards

Some details at

http://kvtrust.blogspot.com/2007/07/...ciary-and.html