France's Dassault flies away with $10-b fighter jet deal :D

[dashing.sujay]

^For god sake don't drag ISRO in this. Its gem of India, something which we must be proud of. Plus I agree there have been discrepancies, but you shouldn't forget that there are bad people everywhere. Certain act of a distinguished person can't wash the image of a reputed organisation. Regarding level of works of DRDO, why don't you compare you own output with those of americans? This is something in which whole India lacks. Just bringing 100 in 10th won't do anything. Ranting is always easy bro, but accepting the truth is very hard. So, support them rather than whining.

[NIGHTMARE]

Finally, I knew Rafael is going to select because of price, this deal is like buy one get one free.

[prabhu.wali]

Originally Posted by NIGHTMARE

Finally, I knew Rafael is going to select because of price, this deal is like buy one get one free.

A lot more goes into this deal than just the pricing m8 like diplomacy,TOT,etc

[tkin]

Rafaels will nicely fill in alongside the upcoming PAKFAs and Tejas, with the MiGs and Sukhois onboard India will probably emerge as the dominant leader in airspace in SE Asia, although all it takes to ruin this plan is a couple of chinese spies, bribes and a bunch of corrupt politicians(which we have an abundance of).

[NIGHTMARE]

you are right. thats the reason we rejected EFT. now we have commonality in Miraj 2000 & Rafale.

in the near future we are planning to operate only 3 platforms
1. Russion - PAK FA, SU 30 MKI, Mig 29 & 29K,
2. French - Miraj 2000, Rafale,
3. Indian - LCA, AMCA

What do you think of this..?

777 Howies,C-17s, P-8I,C-130 J - US happy

PAKFA mega deal,Mig-29 Upg, Brahmos hypersonic version, Addl MKIs ,Akula subs - Russia happy.

Barak,ELTA Radars, other Avionics - Israel happy

Additional Scorpene,Mirage upg +P-75I + FREMM - France happy

Eurofighter Typhoon as MRCA- EU Happy..

[ico]

I have cleaned up this thread Don't post off-topic things.

Also don't post stupid things like "why waste money?? indigenous R&D ftw"... Short answer? Indians generally are dumb whether an IIT graduate or a politician. 'Research and Development' and 'India' don't go hand in hand. ISRO is an exception but arms is a different gravy.

Stick to the topic. It's about Rafale and arms.

[Sarath]

The deal hasn't been finalised. It has to be accepted and signed.
And the parameters of the deal will be further discussed, bargaining I guess.

So let's wait and watch. I'm guessing within a year it will be signed. In ten years, hopefully, we will have all the jets.

-Newspaper

[hellknight]

^^The deal will be finalized. Dassault is in bad shape & they need this deal. Their shares jumped around 20% when this news came out. Moreover, it is perfect for IAF.

[NIGHTMARE]

The deal will be signed in next year around March or April.

Strategic lift in Rafale tailwind

[bubusam13]

I too support them. Counting the number of brains and funds they actually have, they are doing good. If the Govt. invest in DRDO at present, then also they won't be able to develop better tech. Shortage of brain power.

@gopi_vbboy... I don't know about HAL but there is research in DRDO and extensive research in ISRO. And most research and researchers are kept confidential.

[Sarath]

Can we skip with our R&D chat. It's simple. It's too expensive, time consuming and we are too late.

India was denied access to cryoengine or Cryogenic rocket engine tech by US and Russia was pressurised by the same into not disclosing it. We did get it in parts though iirc. This I heard years ago.
We have an LCA to our credit. It takes a lot of patience and hard work. Sp let's just wait and watch what happens.

I hope we too have something to our credit like the Embraer to Brazil.

Buying jets makes a lot more sense now.

[dashing.sujay]

Cryogenic has been denied to India due to its significant role in development of ICBM which other countries don't want India to be.

[Sarath]

Hmm... I guess...will have to read more into it, but no time atm.

BTW should we close this thread. We are dragging the news.

[gopi_vbboy]

Originally Posted by ico

I have cleaned up this thread Don't post off-topic things.

Also don't post stupid things like "why waste money?? indigenous R&D ftw"... Short answer? Indians generally are dumb whether an IIT graduate or a politician. 'Research and Development' and 'India' don't go hand in hand. ISRO is an exception but arms is a different gravy.

Stick to the topic. It's about Rafale and arms.

This country doesn't give respect and recognition for scientists and researchers.Reservation and corruption adding to this.

Clearly evident how isro's ex chief nair was treated for antrix deal.

[dashing.sujay]

Originally Posted by Sarath

BTW should we close this thread. We are dragging the news.

#mods, either move this to fight club or close it.

Originally Posted by gopi_vbboy

This country doesn't give respect and recognition for scientists and researchers.Reservation and corruption adding to this.

Clearly evident how isro's ex chief nair was treated for antrix deal.

IDK much details about it, but AFAIK the sack has got to do something with role of an ISRO scientist in illegal selling of S band spectrum. (not sure though)

[sumonpathak]

hmm....well am not too much of a expert in this...but found this interesting post in [e]
quoting here

Originally Posted by stonesurd

If I was buying, I would pick the Rafale for the following reasons:

1. We own and operate Mirage 2000s. Most people don't realize that this tender exists because we wasted too much time buying more Mirages after Kargil. Dassault offered to keep the Mirage production lines open for GoI if they would place an order but they decided to float a multi-vendor tender instead. So there already exists infrastructure to operate and maintain Dassault airframes and Snecma engines. No drastic changes in equipment or personnel.

2. The Rafale is a better multirole aircraft than the Typhoon, period. It has a two ton payload advantage and a higher MTOW. In this day and age, dogfighters are impressive but almost entirely irrelevant.

3. As a follow on from the second point, the Thales RBE2 radar on the Rafale is marginally inferior to the CAPTOR on the Typhoon in terms of power and range but has demonstrably better combat capability (track, agility and LPI). Also, the RBE2 AESA is going to be inducted in under 12 months while the Typhoon's CAESAR AESA is still up in the air (they haven't decided whether the 2012 production batch will be fitted with it or whether it will be offered as an upgrade later). The sooner we get an AESA airframe, the better.

4. High ceiling and thrust are irrelevant on a modern battlefield because of massive improvements in surface defense systems and airborne radars. The difference between the Rafale and Typhoon would be substantial if E/M were still relevant today and close-range encounters were the norm. They are not, so the difference is purely academic. Now if you want to exploit excess thrust and service ceiling, look at types like the fifth-gen fighters and recon birds like the MiG-31.

5. Cheaper unit cost. In a country where poverty and poor infrastructure are rampant, we could use all the cost savings we can get. This, above all, should be the most important reason to pick the Rafale. People argue that one can't skimp on defence with neighbors like China and Pakistan. The counter argument is simple - we cannot afford to keep pace with China and with half our present military, we could still wipe Pakistan off the face of the planet.

6. The Rafale has a tried and tested naval variant. Should the Naval LCA prove troublesome or more punch be required aboard our future aircraft carriers, the Rafale-M would be a drop in replacement with joint maintenance paradigms. Also, aircraft tailored for naval needs tend to be (historically) much more reliable than their shore-based counterparts. With advances in technology, this difference is marginal but with our AF's spotty track record we could use whatever little peace of mind we can get.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the Rafale's intakes have better flow characteristics than the Typhoon's.

link

oh and btw...rafale is also an air superiority fighter....with a bigger payload..

[Krow]

Good read from the Economist.

The Typhoon is the superior air-to-air interceptor. The Rafale switches more easily into a ground-attack mode.

Fighter jets: Bomb bays to Delhi | The Economist

[prabhu.wali]

Originally Posted by Krow

Good read from the Economist.



Fighter jets: Bomb bays to Delhi | The Economist

+ 1

[Krow]

Originally Posted by dashing.sujay

#mods, either move this to fight club or close it.

OT: The # tag does not work on vBulletin.

On topic: I think we have done the right thing by going for Rafale. Simple reason. France has been struggling to get a contract, they will be more desperate. Means we can get a better deal.

[dashing.sujay]

Originally Posted by Krow

OT: The # tag does not work on vBulletin.

I know Moreover, #mods isn't any tag. I just wrote it to acknowledge it to mods.

[NIGHTMARE]

The EFT is a much better air to air fighter than the Rafale but the absence of a credible air interdiction capability is what sealed its fight all the EFT can do is just drop laser guided bombs whereas Rafale can deploy multiple weapons at ease like the scalp, AASM,Exocet etc not to mention it has a better radar if the EFT had a better air to ground capability then it would have won the competition hands down not to mention the Rafale's air to air capabilities will increase when the meteor is equipped on it.

[prabhu.wali]

Originally Posted by NIGHTMARE

The EFT is a much better air to air fighter than the Rafale but the absence of a credible air interdiction capability is what sealed its fight all the EFT can do is just drop laser guided bombs whereas Rafale can deploy multiple weapons at ease like the scalp, AASM,Exocet etc not to mention it has a better radar if the EFT had a better air to ground capability then it would have won the competition hands down not to mention the Rafale's air to air capabilities will increase when the meteor is equipped on it.

well for air superiority we have around 137 Sukhoi 30MKIs and plan to take that number to 272 so Rafale is mainly for ground ops

[hellknight]

Sukhoi 30 MKI is awesome.. I read in Wikipedia that during the Indo-Anglo exercise, it out-manouvered Eurofighter Typhoon & the English pilots were very, very impressed with it..

[tkin]

Originally Posted by hellknight

Sukhoi 30 MKI is awesome.. I read in Wikipedia that during the Indo-Anglo exercise, it out-manouvered Eurofighter Typhoon & the English pilots were very, very impressed with it..

Sukhois always showed great maneuverability , the Peguchev's Kobra was first performed by a Russian pilot in SU-27, and Sukhois are the only fighters that can pull off a Kubeit.

Russians alway pushed for WVR fight aka Dogfights, Americans pushed for BVR, Rafael is a sort of comprise between these(severely lacking in stealth though).

But still, it will be the best multirole fighter in this region when delivered, able to provide CAS in high altitude regions.

[NIGHTMARE]

Originally Posted by prabhu.wali

well for air superiority we have around 137 Sukhoi 30MKIs and plan to take that number to 272 so Rafale is mainly for ground ops

Well Rafael is for Omnirole. And the prime aim of MMRCA was, replacing old Mig 21.

While we do have 152 Mig21Bis/Bisons in service , but out of these 2 Sqds ie 32 aircrafts will be replaced by Su30MKI , and remaining 6 Sqds ie 120 Aircrafts will be replaced by inducting 40 LCA MK1 and 83 LCA MK2 , But all this will take time , INFACT WE CAN ONLY COUNT 40 LCA MK1 till 2016 , there after 83 LCA MK2 will be delivered between 2017-22
While all Mig21s Would be retired by 2017 , Hence we will have to assume that out of 8 Mig21 sqds , 5 would have to be replaced by MKI , With the 14th MKI sqd actually replacing the first Mig27 Sqd

While Rafael will replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar sqds ,

In the end Last 3 LCA MK2 Sqds will just help to increase the number of Fighter sqds from 33 to 36, Coz the aircraft which it meant to replace would have been retired before they enter service

Infact we can look at the following fleet in 2022

126 RAFALES - 7 Sqds
269 Su30MKI - 14 Sqds
123 LCAMK1/2 - 6 Sqds
72 Jaguars - 3 Sqds + Trainers
50 Mirage 2000V5 - 3 Sqds
60 Mig29SMT - 3 Sqds
30 FGFA - 1.5 Sqds

Ie 730 Fighters in 37.5 Sqds

Also Note Any follow on order for 80 Rafales or any other fighters will replace Remaining Jaguars and 1 sqd of Mirages

While 4th , 5th and 6th FGFA Sqds will replace Mig29SMT.

[Krow]

Clipping of Delhi, 07 February, 2012 : DigitalEdition

Former armyman writes on Rafale. Interesting stuff. Bofors' shadow had tainted all defence deals yet. Due to the transparency in this deal, that shadow has finally been put to rest.

[prabhu.wali]

Originally Posted by NIGHTMARE

Well Rafael is for Omnirole. And the prime aim of MMRCA was, replacing old Mig 21.

While we do have 152 Mig21Bis/Bisons in service , but out of these 2 Sqds ie 32 aircrafts will be replaced by Su30MKI , and remaining 6 Sqds ie 120 Aircrafts will be replaced by inducting 40 LCA MK1 and 83 LCA MK2 , But all this will take time , INFACT WE CAN ONLY COUNT 40 LCA MK1 till 2016 , there after 83 LCA MK2 will be delivered between 2017-22
While all Mig21s Would be retired by 2017 , Hence we will have to assume that out of 8 Mig21 sqds , 5 would have to be replaced by MKI , With the 14th MKI sqd actually replacing the first Mig27 Sqd

While Rafael will replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar sqds ,

In the end Last 3 LCA MK2 Sqds will just help to increase the number of Fighter sqds from 33 to 36, Coz the aircraft which it meant to replace would have been retired before they enter service

Infact we can look at the following fleet in 2022

126 RAFALES - 7 Sqds
269 Su30MKI - 14 Sqds
123 LCAMK1/2 - 6 Sqds
72 Jaguars - 3 Sqds + Trainers
50 Mirage 2000V5 - 3 Sqds
60 Mig29SMT - 3 Sqds
30 FGFA - 1.5 Sqds

Ie 730 Fighters in 37.5 Sqds

Also Note Any follow on order for 80 Rafales or any other fighters will replace Remaining Jaguars and 1 sqd of Mirages

While 4th , 5th and 6th FGFA Sqds will replace Mig29SMT.

yh pretty much but if all goes well with the FGFA(delivery date 2017) we might see atleast 60-80 of them in the skies

[NIGHTMARE]

Check out the video

[prabhu.wali]

The selection of Dassault?s Rafale as India?s new MMRCA fighter was only the latest step in the Air Force?s long and painstaking process to pick itself a winner
Long after the streets emptied that chilly winter evening in December 1981, lights were burning on the fifth floor of Vayu Bhavan in the elite Operations Branch of the Indian Air Force. Worrying the brightest thinkers of IAF was a brash new arrival in the subcontinental skies. The US had just announced the sale of 40 F-16 fighters to Pakistan, giving the Pakistan Fiza’ya (as the Pakistan Air Force styles itself) a fighter potent, fast and agile enough to upset the air power balance in the subcontinent. That F-16 purchase unleashed a set of Indian reactions that culminated in last week’s decision to negotiate with French Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, MMRCA for short.
India moved quickly to counter the F-16 with the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fighters. Soon after Squadron Leader Shahid Javed landed Pakistan’s first F-16 at Sargodha Air Base on January 15, 1983, New Delhi signed a contract with Dassault for 49 Mirage 2000s. IAF pilots began training in France, and in 1985 the first Mirage 2000s joined the IAF fleet. This was South Asia’s first true “multi-role” fighter, good for strike missions, electronic warfare support, and also fast and manoeuvrable enough for air-to-air combat. From the outset, IAF pilots relished the Mirage 2000 as well as the relationship with Dassault.
Rajan Bhasin, then a young flight lieutenant and later one of IAF’s top guns, was in the first batch of eight pilots who went to France in 1984 to learn how to fly the Mirage 2000. He recalls, “The Mirage 2000 was a superb fighter. And the relationship with Dassault was always completely professional. We got the fighter we paid for; and we got the training we paid for. Whatever we wanted extra, we had to pay for it. But Dassault did not cheat.”
By 1987 PAF had inducted all 40 F-16s that it had contracted for and, in 1988, Pakistan ordered and paid for another 11 F-16 fighters. But though alarm bells were ringing in New Delhi and IAF was keen to order more Mirage 2000s under an options clause in the contract, it did not do so. The purchase of the Russian MiG-29, reputedly an “F-16 buster” due to its prowess in air-to-air combat, had left no space for more Mirage 2000s.
But IAF’s enthusiasm for Dassault fighters still burned bright, especially after the Mirage 2000 demonstrated its ability to strike almost invisible Pakistani positions on the knife-edged ridges above Kargil in 1999. At the turn of the century — with the early-model MiG-21s rapidly becoming obsolete, and with their replacement, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft still to take to the air (it first flew only in 2001) — IAF formally asked the defence ministry to buy and shift to India the entire Mirage 2000 production line that Dassault was closing down. This would allow Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to build the improved Mirage 2000-5 to replace the vintage MiG-21s. With Dassault shifting production to the new-generation Rafale fighter, France was willing to sell India the Mirage 2000 line.
“IAF told the ministry that we wanted aircraft with which we were familiar. That was the Mirage 2000, and we wanted the latest version: the Mirage 2000-5. As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000,” says Air Marshal (retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora who was Vice-chief of Air Staff till 2010.
But the ministry, stung by the Tehelka expose on corruption in defence procurement, feared that a single-vendor buy from Dassault might be criticised as arbitrary. Pointing out that IAF had not availed of an “options clause” in the 1983 contract for Mirage 2000 fighters, George Fernandes’s defence ministry asked IAF to float a global tender for the very best fighter that could be bought from the international market.
Another reason for a new global tender was the fear that the Mirage 2000-5 might no longer be good enough. With the American dependence on Pakistan growing due to the war in Afghanistan, it seemed likely that at least two more squadrons of F-16s would soon join PAF. These would be the formidable Block 50/52 fighters with greatly improved radars and weaponry. And PAF was also slated to get a brand new fleet of over 200 Chinese JF 17 Thunder light fighters.

Maker Fighter Good and bad
Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper Better avionics and weaponry than any other F-16 sold before
Boeing F/A-16 Super Hornet A customised variant with high-level aircrew situational awareness, rejected in favour of the Typhoon and Rafale
Eurofighter GmbH Typhoon Its production was expected to create thousands of jobs in India and Europe
Dassault Rafale Dassault's old Mirage 2000 is a favourite of IAF pilots
Saab Gripen NG Still in the future
Russia MiG-35 Left the race in April 2011
Even more alarming was China’s weapons and infrastructure buildup in Tibet. The old J-7 and J-8 fighters, which IAF could comfortably handle, were now being replaced by a fleet of Russian Sukhoi-27/30 fighters, and the Chinese F-10, which reportedly fields advanced avionics bought from Israel. Suddenly the dragon had an improved military airfield network in Tibet with extended runways and modernised facilities.
“We needed to boost our fighter fleet really, really, urgently,” says a serving Air Marshal who prefers to remain anonymous. “And we were determined to implement an acquisition process which nobody in the ministry could fault or delay. Today, the IAF process has become the gold standard for fighter aircraft acquisitions worldwide. The Brazilian defence minister, who visited Delhi this week, has asked us to share details with his ministry on just how we did it.”
* * * * *
It began with the drawing up of specifications in Vayu Bhavan that demanded not the best available fighter in the world, but a fighter so good that it didn’t yet exist. The IAF specifications included: superb aerodynamic performance; the most advanced AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar that would allow the aircraft to detect and fire missiles before an enemy fighter realised that he was in the crosshairs; advanced electronic warfare capabilities to blind the opposition; and weaponry integrated seamlessly with the fighter’s avionics. Everything was put down in writing before a Request for Proposal (RfP) was sent out to six global aerospace companies in August 2007.
For these companies, the big question was: which fighter to offer? Lockheed Martin had the F-22 Raptor, the world’s only fifth-generation fighter, which would win any competition hands-down but would never be cleared for export. The company was also building the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, but that was years away from completion and could not participate in IAF’s impending flight trials. Lockheed Martin eventually fielded its most advanced Block 60 F-16 fighter, dubbed the F-16IN Super Viper, with better avionics and weaponry than any F-16 sold before. Other companies had fewer choices: Boeing fielded its F/A-16 Super Hornet, Dassault offered the Rafale, Saab the Gripen NG which is still in the future, Eurofighter GmbH offered the Typhoon, and Russia fielded the MiG-35.
In the second half of 2008, IAF conducted a technical evaluation to see whether the bids conformed to the RfP. What should have been an innocuous process turned dramatic when Dassault’s bid was reportedly rejected as incomplete. While this was quickly resolved by diplomatic intervention, reportedly by President Sarkozy himself, other companies now say the Rafale was done a favour by being allowed back into the contest.
It was the next stage of evaluation — flight trials — that has put IAF’s testing process in a league of its own. Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements, and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice-Marshal) R K Dhir, each of the six contenders was flight-tested by IAF pilots on 660 separate performance aspects. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter’s engine should be replaced within one hour. The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If IAF demanded a “sustained turn rate” (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF’s “sustained turn rate” requirements)
Air Marshal Barbora, who oversaw the flight evaluation process as IAF’s vice-chief, says that six teams of pilots, flight engineers and maintenance staff were mustered — one for each aircraft. Each pilot began by learning to fly the fighter he would evaluate, while the flight engineers and maintenance staff learned the technical ropes. The IAF pilots physically flew each of the contending fighters, albeit with a “home” pilot in the second seat. This was the first time that any air force has been allowed to conduct such a fly-off.
Last April, the ministry “down-selected” the Rafale and Typhoon, which meant that only these two aircraft had passed the flight trial evaluation. Now the game had changed; with performance established, the cheaper of the two was going to be adjudged the winner. For the first time in India, costs were not compared on the ticket price alone, but on how much the fighter would cost to buy, build, upgrade and operate over a service life of three to four decades. IAF had clearly learned a lesson from the Russian MiG experience, where a cheap upfront price that seemed initially attractive led to enormous operating costs and a lower aircraft availability that meant that when IAF paid for six squadrons, it actually had just three squadrons to fly.
Air Marshal (retired) Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, who brought the first Mirage 2000s to India, says, “Russian fighters like the MiG-29 are great for air shows but serviceability is often a problem. When you get airborne, the radar often becomes unserviceable… sometimes this happens between two sorties.”
* * * * *
The final countdown has begun, towards signing a contract with Dassault. A defence ministry body called the Contract Negotiating Committee will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault’s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, and scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that by the wages (which are notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted.
CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India, and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50 per cent of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.
If the Rafale purchase goes through, the French seem here to stay. — with Riju Dileep, Febin Fredy, Karthik Vb, Rahulrj Wagonprince, Fariz Mohammed S, Mamta Patel, Shanavas Shanu, Marbella Martinez, Melany Dagman, Sanu Baskey, Onkar Nath Rai, Dinesh Sharma, Biplab Debnath, Onkar Rai, Rajesh Pawar, Aman Maurya Dabangg, Biplab Debnath, Dinesh Sharma, Pragnesh Patel, Monish Gattem, Sabir Daydreamer, Mayur Patel, Jaya Prakash, Srk Anish, Rahul Rasgulla, Arshad Mohammed, Sreejith Sree, Liju Poovalappil, Shirdhi Rk, Sivan Puthenpurayil and Ali Hearts.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...7763070&type=1

[Ronnie11]

the original source

Broadsword: The Rafale’s long flight to India