A Distro for Indian Schools

[MetalheadGautham]

Hi Guys!

I am on a project to build the perfect distro for common Indian schools with low end computers as an educational tool. I need the distro to fulfill the following needs:

1. Be able to teach anyone about the internals of computing

2. Have an easy to learn commandline mode

3. Be easy to manage by a single administrator who handles 20 systems

4. Run on light systems - meaning 2GHz P4 or 2.4GHz celerons or even lower, with 256MB of DDR1 333MHz RAM and monitors similar to Samsung Samatron 15".

5. Comfortably intorduce kids to computing at an early age and get them hooked on to linux

6. Be able to last on the same configuration for a few years

7. Run Turbo C++ 3.0 on Wine

8. Run OpenOffice.org, while not running anything else

I am doing this for the Jawaharlal Nehru Science Exibition 2008 under the category "Educational Technology". Last year I made it to the nationals, and this year I hope to do something similar or better, since its my last year at school and I want to return something to the set of institutions which made me what I am.

I have time to decide on the config till today 6.30AM and download and set it up and create a Live DVD or HDD Image.

I have a 5400RPM 40GB IDE HDD, of which I intend to use not more than 20GB.

I have been thinking of Arch Linux and Zenwalk. What do you say guys ?

I am thinking of making two versions, one with arch and IceDE, my own basic idea of a DE based on IceWM which has basic easy to use apps like Sea Monkey, EmelFM, DFM, irssi, nano, xine, etc.

The second will be a full fledged Xfce environment with Educational Apps like Celestina, Stellarium, Periodic Tabe Of Elements, other misc educational tools, OpenOffice.org, etc.

So I am considering arch for the former and zen for the later. I plan to showcase only the former for the first round on the comming saturday (I am sure that, with the current competition level, and my influence, this is more than enough to pass and make it to regionals).

Please suggest me good configurations for both. And I also need some good free encyclopedias for offline browsing I can use. I remember NucleusKore offering something for sale which was an abriged wikipedia. Can I get something like that ?

PS: would it be a good idea to include an Impress based presentation as a part of this project ?

[Rahim]

Best of luck gautham and is this the distro you promised?

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by rahimveron

Best of luck gautham and is this the distro you promised?

yes
originally intended to be a multimedia OS, this was in the plans for a loooong loooong time.

But for several obvious reasons, I can't release it till the competition is over.

[mehulved]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Hi Guys!

I am on a project to build the perfect distro for common Indian schools with low end computers as an educational tool.

Start by looking at this thread - http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/linux...21/064207.html

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

[I]1. Be able to teach anyone about the internals of computing

Define your target audience.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

2. Have an easy to learn commandline mode

Well this is always a very subjective term.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

3. Be easy to manage by a single administrator who handles 20 systems

Then go with a debian based or red hat based system, suse and mandriva will be good choices too but my experiene with them is limited so cannot say how will it adapt to such needs. Probably people on Pune Linux Users Group can answer the Mandriva part cos there is quite some number of Mandriva users there.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

4. Run on light systems - meaning 2GHz P4 or 2.4GHz celerons or even lower, with 256MB of DDR1 333MHz RAM and monitors similar to Samsung Samatron 15".

This isn't very much distro specific but more dependant on the window manager/desktop environment.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

6. Be able to last on the same configuration for a few years

Hmm?

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

7. Run Turbo C++ 3.0 on Wine

TC++ 3.0 isn't a win32 application, it's a DOS based application. Even on Vista people use DOSbox for the same.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

8. Run OpenOffice.org, while not running anything else

Not running anything else?

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I have been thinking of Arch Linux and Zenwalk. What do you say guys ?

Will you be able to satisfy point 3 here?

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I am thinking of making two versions, one with arch and IceDE, my own basic idea of a DE based on IceWM which has basic easy to use apps like Sea Monkey, EmelFM, DFM, irssi, nano, xine, etc.

Don't forget geany

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

So I am considering arch for the former and zen for the later.

Are you sure you will be able to handle mass deployment of Zenwalk? I didnt' feel it too comfortable for such a purpose.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

And I also need some good free encyclopedias for offline browsing I can use. I remember NucleusKore offering something for sale which was an abriged wikipedia. Can I get something like that ?

Get a wikipedia dump and run a local mediawiki.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

PS: would it be a good idea to include an Impress based presentation as a part of this project ?

Why not?

[humanbeing]

already it@school ,a debian based distro is used in kerala schools

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by mehulved

Start by looking at this thread - http://mm.gnu.org.in/pipermail/linux...21/064207.html

Define your target audience.

Students from age 11 to 18, the standard lot you find here in India.

Then go with a debian based or red hat based system, suse and mandriva will be good choices too but my experiene with them is limited so cannot say how will it adapt to such needs. Probably people on Pune Linux Users Group can answer the Mandriva part cos there is quite some number of Mandriva users there.

Why those ? I was thinking of Arch or Debian, but at the moment Debian seems ruled out since debian Lenny's Successor is not yet out. So is Arch alright ? I think it must be quite easy to manage since editing of text files is all that is involved, and these files can be copied and duplicated on multiple systems via scripts.

Don't forget geany

Whats it ?

Are you sure you will be able to handle mass deployment of Zenwalk? I didnt' feel it too comfortable for such a purpose.

Yup. Zenwalk has a horrible Live Mode, and I just confirmed that in the past hour. So unfortunately that too gets ruled out. Vector is a big question mark, but I think it might be an option. Any other choice ? I don't want to put in something with loads of updates like Sidux since deployment might take place in areas where internet is a bit expensive.

Get a wikipedia dump and run a local mediawiki.

No. This is different. Apparently its some kind of abridged wikipedia collection with only select articles exclusively chosen for school kids. Its 1.3GB in size from what I remember of the torrent. I think it would make a perfect alternative for these Pirated MS Encarta copies I see in most schools. Only NucleusKore can shed some light here I guess.

TC++ 3.0 isn't a win32 application, it's a DOS based application. Even on Vista people use DOSbox for the same.

woops. forgot. then I guess I need to use a common dos emulator for linux.

This isn't very much distro specific but more dependant on the window manager/desktop environment.

you mean to say that even if I install Ubuntu Hardy Heron 8.04.1 on my desktop, but choose to use IceWM instead of standard Gnome/KDE/Xfce, I can expect speed boosts to arch like levels ?

Well this is always a very subjective term.

I have seen people taking about a week to get used to DOS the first time they are introduced to it.

Why not?

takes time...

Hmm?

The system needs to last, without the need of upgrades, for a few years. Meaning that it must not get obsoleted for the distro in too short a span of time. Unfortunately, I need to make "easy to use distro", read HEAVY, a "light distro", read HARD. I am hoping it won't be much difficult. I have done wierder things.

Will you be able to satisfy point 3 here?

I hope so. Linux administrators have not been known to be the dumbest of the lot.

Not running anything else?

Since OOo is a heavy app, I said running it in unitasking mode. Perhaps with a website or two open in browser but not anything more.

Originally Posted by humanbeing

already it@school ,a debian based distro is used in kerala schools

I know it exists. I am looking for something better, that too one which is based on a lighter platform. Thats why I was considering Zenwalk and Arch.

[humanbeing]

for borland TC++ like looks ,try a CLI client called "motor" available for Linux

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by humanbeing

for borland TC++ like looks ,try a CLI client called "motor" available for Linux

Its not looks that are important. the problem here is that the syllabus has Borland TC++ based programming, which does not follow ISO standards like G++. Thats an entirely different topic, so I am leaving it.

[FilledVoid]

A couple of recommendations. These are kids and parents that usually come for Exhibitions. You don't want to restrict children to just studies. You should show them that they could have fun on a Linux Based Machine. Probably a Win game on Wine or a native game on Linux . Remember don't make it a Arcade demo. Cause you will need a crowbar to pry the keyboard away from them .

All the stuff you mentioned is cool . Also try to include Google Earth Maybe , KStar and other educational software. You can refer to the Edubuntu distro for further choices. Also If you want to restrict he title to Indian Schools then add something to culturally link it to India because I don't see why it should be a distro for Indian Schools. Maybe include Language Packs and other Cultural stuff I guess.

Just my two cents.

[mehulved]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Students from age 11 to 18, the standard lot you find here in India.

Then don't rush to show CLI and features, first make them aware of the basic stuff that they normally use.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Why those ? I was thinking of Arch or Debian, but at the moment Debian seems ruled out since debian Lenny's Successor is not yet out. So is Arch alright ? I think it must be quite easy to manage since editing of text files is all that is involved, and these files can be copied and duplicated on multiple systems via scripts.

Well arch, gentoo, crux, etc require too much configuration, so don't opt for them unless you're familiar with some advanced stuff.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Whats it ?

A nice text editor + IDE. Just give it a dekko, you'll surely like it.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Yup. Zenwalk has a horrible Live Mode, and I just confirmed that in the past hour. So unfortunately that too gets ruled out. Vector is a big question mark, but I think it might be an option. Any other choice ? I don't want to put in something with loads of updates like Sidux since deployment might take place in areas where internet is a bit expensive.

Give CentOS a spin, with some usage WM

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

No. This is different. Apparently its some kind of abridged wikipedia collection with only select articles exclusively chosen for school kids. Its 1.3GB in size from what I remember of the torrent. I think it would make a perfect alternative for these Pirated MS Encarta copies I see in most schools. Only NucleusKore can shed some light here I guess.

Yes, but if you have one powerful machine, you can have a nice local wikipeida collection.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

woops. forgot. then I guess I need to use a common dos emulator for linux.

dosbox works on linux, it is open source.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

you mean to say that even if I install Ubuntu Hardy Heron 8.04.1 on my desktop, but choose to use IceWM instead of standard Gnome/KDE/Xfce, I can expect speed boosts to arch like levels ?

More of less. The difference will be hardly noticable. I run ubuntu in VM, with fluxbox as WM, it takes less than 100MB of RAM. Avoid heavy apps like firefox and openoffice. You have abiword, gnucash and the likes. You'll need to search a bit for presentation tool and a browser.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I have seen people taking about a week to get used to DOS the first time they are introduced to it.

Like I said, a very subjective thing. Some make take fancy to it instantly, some may never come around.

The system needs to last, without the need of upgrades, for a few years. Meaning that it must not get obsoleted for the distro in too short a span of time. Unfortunately, I need to make "easy to use distro", read HEAVY, a "light distro", read HARD. I am hoping it won't be much difficult. I have done wierder things.

Mostly it's those DE's that bloat up, with WM's you should be pretty good to go.

[QUOTE=MetalheadGautham;903031]
I hope so. Linux administrators have not been known to be the dumbest of the lot.
[/quoute]
Well, I have heard stories on the contrary. It's a person specific thing.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Since OOo is a heavy app, I said running it in unitasking mode. Perhaps with a website or two open in browser but not anything more.

look for alternatives.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by FilledVoid

A couple of recommendations. These are kids and parents that usually come for Exhibitions. You don't want to restrict children to just studies. You should show them that they could have fun on a Linux Based Machine. Probably a Win game on Wine or a native game on Linux . Remember don't make it a Arcade demo. Cause you will need a crowbar to pry the keyboard away from them .

All the stuff you mentioned is cool . Also try to include Google Earth Maybe , KStar and other educational software. You can refer to the Edubuntu distro for further choices. Also If you want to restrict he title to Indian Schools then add something to culturally link it to India because I don't see why it should be a distro for Indian Schools. Maybe include Language Packs and other Cultural stuff I guess.

Just my two cents.

Don't worry. I am going to include Compiz Fusion too. But the problem is that my current test machine is a Pentium D 3.06 GHz with 224MB RAM (remaining ram from 256 total to DirectX 9.0c capable onboard GPU, don't know name).

I guess I forgot google earth. instead of kstar, which is KDE based and hence heavy, I am including stelarium and clestina. The reason I added Indian schools is because I have visited several schools over the years of my schooling and I can say that many lack proper systems. So the main difference is that Indian Schools need a LIGHT OS, not something heavy. Infact, the systems I have seen are weaker than even MY OWN rig.

[FilledVoid]

Give CentOS a spin, with some usage WM

Im trying out Cent OS 5.2 in VM and I must say Im kind of impressed. Not to mention their torrents are like lightning fast.

[MetalheadGautham]

[quote=mehulved;903069]Then don't rush to show CLI and features, first make them aware of the basic stuff that they normally use.


Well arch, gentoo, crux, etc require too much configuration, so don't opt for them unless you're familiar with some advanced stuff.


A nice text editor + IDE. Just give it a dekko, you'll surely like it.


Give CentOS a spin, with some usage WM


Yes, but if you have one powerful machine, you can have a nice local wikipeida collection.


dosbox works on linux, it is open source.


More of less. The difference will be hardly noticable. I run ubuntu in VM, with fluxbox as WM, it takes less than 100MB of RAM. Avoid heavy apps like firefox and openoffice. You have abiword, gnucash and the likes. You'll need to search a bit for presentation tool and a browser.


Like I said, a very subjective thing. Some make take fancy to it instantly, some may never come around.


Mostly it's those DE's that bloat up, with WM's you should be pretty good to go.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I hope so. Linux administrators have not been known to be the dumbest of the lot.
[/quoute]
Well, I have heard stories on the contrary. It's a person specific thing.

look for alternatives.

Its going to be GUI based, but CLI apps are there to teach students stuff about how to use CLI mode. Its more educational than anything else.

I am familiar with configuring arch, so I guess I should have no issues with it.

CentOS ? I doubt it can run in the system I am planning. But I will try anyhow.

Local wikipedia OK, but articles ? I need to censor some and edit others to make it sutiable for Indian schools. I don't want to see complaints of kids searching about this that and xxx.

I know that about CLI, but still... the system does basic tasks well without cli and cli is only needed for advanced use which needs to be TAUGHT in the first place.

So shall I try Xfce on Arch ? I just installed it...

[infra_red_dude]

One word: PUDLinux Customize it the way you want. Its lightening fast. A very much tweaked Ubuntu.

After sometime you can intro them to Arch/Gentoo etc. if you feel so.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by infra_red_dude

One word: PUDLinux Customize it the way you want. Its lightening fast. A very much tweaked Ubuntu.

After sometime you can intro them to Arch/Gentoo etc. if you feel so.

Thanks for the suggestion. Ubuntu would be great since there are awssome Indian Repositories for it and it has a wide spread community support. A fast ubuntu will only make things a hell lot awssomer.

But the original objective is this:

I need to create distro, or atleast, for now, install it in a 40GB 5400RPM IDE HDD and ensure that it runs smoothly, and customise it to give it a professionalised schoolish flavour. I just eliminated Xfce from the list of propable DEs because its simply not easy enough to use without help (neither is icewm, but I am there na ? but I am an xfce n00b) .

Its supposed to showcase the role linux can play in Indian schools to accomplish the following tasks:

1. Prevent wastage of money on frequent upgrades at the same time keep students up to date with cutting edge technology

2. Save schools from the danger of being sued by MS for using pirated ms office, pirated windows and pirated encarta. Also save genuine paid software using schools from having to invest a lot of money in software upgrades every three years or so.

3. Prove that an OS which can be seen inside out if so desired can help students learn much more easily than otherwise, as in the case of windows

4. demonstrate the immunity linux has to viruses and the level of control administrators can have over the activities being performed by students

5. Show a demo of thin clienting with linux and the ease with which desktop linux users like users of this distro can easily adjust to thin clienting environments and the advantages of having one

6. Finally, the OS needs to be perfect for every single task the school needs to accomplish - run a server, office work, internet, virtual lessons, demonstrations, and at the same time be fool proof.

Its for this reason that I chose to install stuff in a HDD, customise everything, and use it as a demonstration tool from where my entire presentation is sourced. Besides, I am adding some masala into this presentation which would impress some skeptic people too.

[mehulved]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I am familiar with configuring arch, so I guess I should have no issues with it.

Are you familiar with network boot, configuration management and stuff? Cos they will be required to do a mass deployment, else you'll be spending a lot of time installing, configuring and keeping everything in sync.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

CentOS ? I doubt it can run in the system I am planning. But I will try anyhow.

Give it a whirl then reply. It's not like fedora

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Local wikipedia OK, but articles ? I need to censor some and edit others to make it sutiable for Indian schools. I don't want to see complaints of kids searching about this that and xxx.

Proxy it thorough squid or something, so that all the keywords are blocked.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

So shall I try Xfce on Arch ? I just installed it...

Try it, but remember it's a altogether different game when you do a mass deployment as opposed to installing on 1-2 PC's at home. This is where the debians and red hats help. To start with most documents are geared towards them and they have huge knowledgeable community.

[drsubhadip]

there is BOSS LINUX for that same purpose ..
watch that

[MetalheadGautham]

What exactly are the issues associated with RPM in CentOS ? Give me a good talk about it. Then perhaps I can select it.

Does it get latest apps ? How light is it compared to Arch ? I am considering actually INSTALLING it on my system since its so mainstream and since I need something even more stable than Arch for both schools and for the future use of my home rig.

And one more thing: Temporarily for a presentation on saturday, on a Pentium D 3.06GHz machine with 256mb RAM, what OS shall I choose ? I am thinking of making a copy of my own HDD for immidiate use, since it will obviously work on that rig.

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I need to create distro, or atleast, for now, install it in a 40GB 5400RPM IDE HDD and ensure that it runs smoothly, and customise it to give it a professionalised schoolish flavour.

It comes with LXDE and you can ditch OpenWM for metacity. Its still way faster than Xfce, yet nice

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I just eliminated Xfce from the list of propable DEs because its simply not easy enough to use without help

WTF???? Dude.. are you paid to post funny answers here????

Arch is simple.. Xfce is not.. and blah blah..

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by infra_red_dude

It comes with LXDE and you can ditch OpenWM for metacity. Its still way faster than Xfce, yet nice


WTF???? Dude.. are you paid to post funny answers here????

Arch is simple.. Xfce is not.. and blah blah..

LXDE ? Which distro are you talking about ? PUDLinux ?

And I don't mean to be funny. Its just that I keep getting pwned by Xfce whenever I use it.
I tried it on several distros, each time I get the same result.

[mehulved]

Arch is fine for demo but for final implementation, I have my reservations.
And don't forget to demo localisation, install all the required indic fonts, get hold of local language inscript keyboard map so you can demo typing in local language, you can use xkb or scim for that. You can localise the whole desktop if you like.
Focus on educational tools and games, you can search kde-edu for that, also edubuntu.

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

LXDE ? Which distro are you talking about ? PUDLinux ?

Yep.. http://pud-linux.sourceforge.net/index.en.html#

PUD Linux = Latest Ubuntu - Bloat crap + LXDE + SquashFS + LZM compression + Insane tweaks to make it snappy.

The donwload size is 256MB.

Few screenshots : http://pud-linux.sourceforge.net/scr...pud-lxde-2.jpg

http://pud-linux.sourceforge.net/scr...ud-hardy-s.jpg

(zomg.. its only now I realize that PUD people used Mac4Lin for this screenshot )

You also haf a tool to build your own distro.

[FilledVoid]

Arch is fine for demo but for final implementation, I have my reservations.

I would be against it just because of one thing. If something goes wrong you will have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to fix it. Second of all you aren't there only to convince the students but the Staff and management also. Ease of Use , Configuration and Maintenance are huge pluses.

Everything depends on how far you want to go. You could install Virtualbox and even show that you can run Windows on it if needed , Wine and other must use MS Apps. Also don't forget to package a cool dvd like the Matrix or some songs. you basically want to show that you could use Linux boxes for regular use if you wanted to.

And I don't mean to be funny. Its just that I keep getting pwned by Xfce whenever I use it.

Maybe it would help if you pointed to your actual problem. I don't see any problem with XFCE as is.

[4T7]

U don't need wine for Borland TC++ v3 as it runs fine on Dosbox and I've tested it myself on PCBSD btw I like the concept goodluck!

[MetalheadGautham]

Thanks guys. Today I am installing arch in a HDD and customising it. Tomorrow I will transfer it to my presentation system and see how phase one goes. Wish me luck.

edit: I FOUND IT

http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...435#post903435

[ray|raven]

There's a zenwalk fork called ZenEdu Live.
http://www.zenwalk.org/modules/tinyc...ndex.php?id=50

Its meant for pretty much what you have in mind.
Try it out , maybe you can customize it/ fork it to meet your demands.

[k6153r]

Geany is a gr8 IDE.

BTW, I'm 17 and don't think that age group (11-18 ) are so dumb.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by ray|raven

There's a zenwalk fork called ZenEdu Live.
http://www.zenwalk.org/modules/tinyc...ndex.php?id=50

Its meant for pretty much what you have in mind.
Try it out , maybe you can customize it/ fork it to meet your demands.

Thanks but no thanks. For my current project, in stage #1, ubuntu was the distro I used since Arch failed to install in an extra partition at school. There was an error installing grub, but till then, everything was absolutely giving me no trouble. If I find a solution for it, I will go with arch, else I am sticking with a customised ubuntu.

So I need help for the following:

1. Suggest me a good appearence set, with theme, wallpaper, icons, gdm theme, splash screen, boot splash, etc from gnome-look.org

Originally Posted by k6153r

Geany is a gr8 IDE.

BTW, I'm 17 and don't think that age group (11-18 ) are so dumb.

Geany ? Please give me some more details. And I am introducing the ease with which I can type a program in nano and save it then use g++ to compile it. But I doubt it will do wonders since nano lacks c++ syntax hilighting. Is this Geany a commandline app ?

[ray|raven]

^Geany is a Gtk+ IDE.Its very lightweight.

And if you decide to go with a customized ubuntu , try freezy linux.
They have a custom ubuntu with nice look-n-feel and a lot of apps we generally use.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by ray|raven

^Geany is a Gtk+ IDE.Its very lightweight.

And if you decide to go with a customized ubuntu , try freezy linux.
They have a custom ubuntu with nice look-n-feel and a lot of apps we generally use.

and do you know of any way by which I can make Xfce look like Gnome ? People seem to really like gnome's ease of use. I think Xfce menu is a bit cluttered with everything crammed into one single menu. I want to make it look organised like Gnome Menu. Any advice ?