Do Linux developers lack engineering ethics?

[borg]

It seems to me that these Linux guys want to make it as difficult as possible for the end user as they possibly can. I mean why is such an important thing such as GCC not installed by default?. I simply can't understand it. I think it is a conscious attempt by these freaks to make things as complicated & as difficult as possible. I mean there is simply no other possible explanation. They should be sent to a mental institution to have their brains checked out.

[mehulved]

Originally Posted by borg

It seems to me that these Linux guys want to make it as difficult as possible for the end user as they possibly can. I mean why is such an important thing such as GCC not installed by default?. I simply can't understand it. I think it is a conscious attempt by these freaks to make things as complicated & as difficult as possible. I mean there is simply no other possible explanation. They should be sent to a mental institution to have their brains checked out.

These people have more experience than anyone of us here. They just don't act foolishly.
They are doing it for non-profit. And you accuse them for making things harder?
It is a very simple thing that you never ever bothered to find out before speaking.
GCC isn't needed by default cos they want you to use precompiled packages. Since they are optimised for the system. Newbies find it difficult to compile properly from source. So, they encourage you to use the 15,000+ precompiled debain packages.
And if some experienced user wants to compile from source, they won't find it diffiuclt to find GCC.
So, they are the ones being sensible and you are the one who is talking non-sense.
So, as you see an explanation for that is not only possible but also very much sensible.
Well as far as nitish's case is considered, such cases are very low and reducing repidly. So, these people are rather moving with times. You can't do everything at a time.

[borg]

C'mon man, there is no need to defend every little foolish action of the Linux community. GCC is clearl needed by everyone including newbies, the proof of which is this very thread. GCC isn't a huge big behemoth & should be installed by default. Everyone who uses Linux needs it one day or another. I suggest you stop being a Linux fanatic & start to view things a little more objectively. the problem with Linux designers is that they always assume that the end user knows everything. Its bad engineering ethics.

[borg]

OK, I want an honest discussion on this topic. There is no point becoming fanatical & defending Linux for every small thing. Sometimes a little introspection doesn't do any harm. I am not here to attack Linux or anything like that.

I have noticed that the Linux designers have this uncanny ability to make even the simplest of this more complicated. I find it quite amusing. A few simple examples-

1. Necessary components like GCC, Libstdc++, etc aren't installed by default. It only creates a whole lot of confusion & frustruation for newusers & veterans alike. Why can't these vital components be installed by default.

2. Some useful features of FC4 were taken out of Fedora Core 5. For example, the ability to add applications using CDs after installation. Now using the software updater one must compulsorily connect to & download apps from the net. the justification was given that this is to ensure that the latest version in always installed. i don't buy that thoguh.

Many more examples can be given. An engineer is taught to make his creations aesthetically appealing & easy to figure out & use. This concept is inherent to engineering. Do Linux designers lack this sense?. Or is it something else. Do Linux designers make things complicated for some other reason?. What can be done to solve this problem?.

[nitish_mythology]

This was tech_your_future answer

Originally Posted by tech_your_future

These people have more experience than anyone of us here. They just don't act foolishly.
They are doing it for non-profit. And you accuse them for making things harder?
It is a very simple thing that you never ever bothered to find out before speaking.
GCC isn't needed by default cos they want you to use precompiled packages. Since they are optimised for the system. Newbies find it difficult to compile properly from source. So, they encourage you to use the 15,000+ precompiled debain packages.
And if some experienced user wants to compile from source, they won't find it diffiuclt to find GCC.
So, they are the ones being sensible and you are the one who is talking non-sense.
So, as you see an explanation for that is not only possible but also very much sensible.
Well as far as nitish's case is considered, such cases are very low and reducing repidly. So, these people are rather moving with times. You can't do everything at a time.

[nitish_mythology]

Linux community has done much for us!
Even some prb are there, I dont care...
We shd even do something, the explanation of tech_your_future is perfect!

Well I am novice in Linux but I hv a say--
Most people own a broadbands, they can easily download pakages!
They dont need to compile by source

Linux community cant be blamed!

[mehulved]

Posts moved here. I need that thread clean.
Continue further discussion here.

[gary4gar]

ya me to faced probs when enabling rar support.a simple rar .deb package was installed after so many step:

1) download rar_3.30-2_i386.deb & found dependies of libstdc++5_3.3.6-8ubuntu1_i386.deb

2)downlaod libstdc++5_3.3.6-8ubuntu1_i386.deb & found dependies of gcc-3.3-base_3.3.6-8ubuntu1_i386.deb

3)downlaod gcc-3.3-base_3.3.6-8ubuntu1_i386.deb & at last no dependies


in the whole process. issued more 15 commands,don't say me use apt-get firstly i tried using it only what returened file not found error.


my point is why don't bundle the default app & envirments which a normal user need provided that there is no legal or monetry threat

[borg]

These people have more experience than anyone of us here. They just don't act foolishly.

maybe they do, but they don't have much experience in UI design or aesthetics. They are just techies.

[JGuru]

Which Linux distro you are using @Borg? Use Mandriva Linux, it will install GCC,
and other tools (ofcourse you must have chosen 'Install C/C++ libraries with
documentation' ). I think the Linux guys have done a great job. Why don't you
buy a book in Linux (ofcourse the distro you are using) and start learning?
Rather than complaining & wasting your time.

[Satissh S]

Hmm.. all this talk make a big joke, seriously.

But lets, stay clear of one point, If u mention linux developers u are mentionning the kernel developers . But i'll assume that the above discussion was about the GNU/linux operating system.

@borg: Dear friend, if u see, when we guys, the so-called fanatics by ppl like you say the gnu/linux operating system is about choices, the complain we get is its choices lead to its downfall as my granny can't use the OS.

To address that complain ubuntu was made as easy to the novice user as possible, they assumed that,

1. The user is a granny who wont compile softwares that they use for daily purposes, needs the minimal choice of softwares and expects stuff to be easy to get the work done.

2. The user is a refuge taking cover from Windows, where the user had no need to compile c source code in windows.

(windows doesn't include a c compiler by default, which u say as a bare necessity, probably u shud educate Steve Ballmer how foolish he is to not include Microsoft C compiler with windows)

The same is expected of them when converting to gnu. So ubuntu a class of operating system that is made for novice users and windows converts or dual boots who want to enjoy free/opensource softwares.

If u feel u want control in your Gnu/linux operating system, come my side and start using gentoo, slacky or LFS or even arch to an extent, u can make or break your system, your hardware, your choice. Rather than blaming the devs for things they do for addressing certain complaints.

Abt your FC complain, well thats a genuine mishap i accept, but it isn't entirely impossible not to install softies from the install cd/dvd after finishing the installation. You need to setup a local repository of softwares and configure yum according to the repository.

Coming to the so-called Engineering Ethics,

Originally Posted by borg

An engineer is taught to make his creations aesthetically appealing & easy to figure out & use. This concept is inherent to engineering.

Not necessarily and doesn't have to be. An engineers' main goal is to make things efficient and simple to use. That doesn't include creating of Great GUI tools to aid the cause. Simplicity is a relative term.

Most of the configurations, in GNU/Linux can be and should be done by editing the configuration files, namely,
/etc/rc.conf
/etc/hosts
/etc/fstab
/etc/resolv.conf
and the bootloader configuration files such as grub.conf or lilo.conf.

As simple as that. GNU/linux does not require GUI tools and it will never as it was designed to be run _even_ without a GUI. GUI was not thought of to be a necesssary part and it will never be.

I hoped to clear a few things there and not necessarily offend you.

[borg]

You never have to compile software on Mac/Windows. Hence the exclusion of a compiler by default. But in Linux, you very often come accross programs which require to be dcompiled & installed. Hence GCC should have been included by default. These are really small things which should have been thought of. This isn't the only case. For example the file libstdc++ is required before newer versions of Firefox are able to run. Those were also not included by default. I don't understand why these critical files are left out.


One thing is for sure, Linux needs a lot of polish. And that is what people aren't focusing on. Sure with every new release we get new versions of softwares. ie instead of GCC 3.xx, the latest version includes 4.xx. But, not much is being done on the ease of use front. It seems they have forgotten about it. I am waiting for a Linux distro which would not require me to go to the command prompt at all. I haven't seen any as of yet.

[Satissh S]

Originally Posted by borg

You never have to compile software on Mac/Windows. Hence the exclusion of a compiler by default. But in Linux, you very often come accross programs which require to be dcompiled & installed. Hence GCC should have been included by default.

Well, in the particular distribution in talk here, ubuntu the developers thought that the user would use the extensive debian repository of more than 15000 Free software packages (anything imaginable), so they havent installed gcc by default .

Originally Posted by borg

One thing is for sure, Linux needs a lot of polish.

What do you mean by polish?? if u mean it needs gui configuration tools, i wud simply ignore this comment as i have answered this previously, if u mean anything else tell, we can discuss it here.

Originally Posted by borg

I am waiting for a Linux distro which would not require me to go to the command prompt at all. I haven't seen any as of yet.

Dont count me as harsh, but ull never get one. When u use the gui tools, u use a virtual instance of a Xterm ( a terminal emulator). How could it be even possible that u wont use a command line??

[borg]

I meant directly. Every OS uses some obsure technique to get work done, but hides all that from the user. Thats what I mean.

The fact remains that designers can do a much better job of simplifying Linux. For some reason they just don't want to do it. Maybe its not a priority for them...sadly.

[Satissh S]

So GNU/linux needs a lot of abstraction, as u think. If u see, the concept of Free/Open Source is Openness. Abstraction isn't exactly necessary. This isn't a commercial OS like MSWindows, this is a community Operating System.

Just because MS and Apple(to some extent) do it doesn't mean that GNU/linux has to do it. This doesn't necessarily seem a positive concept to me. IMHO of course.

[borg]

Its not copying Windows or MacOS. Linux can be Linux & can still be easy to use. Does Linux have to be as arcane & as difficult to lear n & use to be useful???. I don't think so. Making Linux easy to use does not take away its functionality in the least bit. Advanced users can continue using CLI. Whos stopping them?. All I am saying is that, is it necessary to require users to memorize & learn arcane commands just be able to use the computer?. Is it necessary that for Linux to be useful to advanced users, it keep out novice users?. I don' think so at all.

[GNUrag]

Originally Posted by borg

maybe they do, but they don't have much experience in UI design or aesthetics. They are just techies.

Just Shut up and dont blabber without having any clue how software is developed in GNU/Linux community.

For your small and limited understanding, i must say, OpenOffice is completely funded and developed by Sun Microsystems, GNOME and DotGNU is funded and developed by none other than Novell, Qt project is funded and developed by TrollTech, Several important device drivers in Linux kernel is commited to kernel cvs by IBM developers.. SGI funds the OpenGL project,

Do you think they have no clue about software development and ethics?

Originally Posted by borg

GCC is clearl needed by everyone including newbies, the proof of which is this very thread. GCC isn't a huge big behemoth & should be installed by default. Everyone who uses Linux needs it one day or another.

None of my students needed GCC to be installed. That's a fact, and might be little difficult for you to get in.

And Windows doesnt have compilers not because you dont have to compile anything, but because of the fact that there's nothing to compile in Windows.. How many software (apart from usual GPL stuff) comes with source tell me??

Originally Posted by borg

I suggest you stop being a Linux fanatic & start to view things a little more objectively. the problem with Linux designers is that they always assume that the end user knows everything. Its bad engineering ethics.

Question No. 1: Who are you to teach engineering ethics? Do you rate yourself above than IBM/Sun/SGI/Novell/Berkeley developers?

/me getting a good laugh for myself

[mehulved]

Originally Posted by borg

I meant directly. Every OS uses some obsure technique to get work done, but hides all that from the user. Thats what I mean.

The fact remains that designers can do a much better job of simplifying Linux. For some reason they just don't want to do it. Maybe its not a priority for them...sadly.

Sadly enough you don't know what you are speaking of.
Linux is the OS that came out with GUI installers. MS is yet to come out with it in Vista AFAIK. Go and see Gentoo 2006.0 and Ubuntu 6.06.
There's GUI for almost everything now in Linux. Just a few things like probably drivers for video cards need to be configured using command line. And that is because these drivers mostly can't be bundled with the distros cos distros are released under GPL, so they can't bundle non-GPL'd stuff.
You need to read on GPL, Open Source philosophy and need to explore the distros properly first to know what is there and what isn't.
Coming to talk of GUI. Yes, I agree GUI is very necessary to entice users who jsut want to get their work done. But, how many softwares will these people really want to install. They will need just the basic softwares which are more or less there. They won't ever need to go in CLI.
I am using Ubuntu as of now so will give you some gist of how much can be done by GUI in here.
1) There's synaptic, GUI for apt-get. And you can enable extra repositories from Synaptic without using CLI.
Open Synaptic => Settings => Repositories => Add => select your desired channels and components.
2) You can see hardware information from Device Manager
3) You can see your hard disks and removable media, mount and unmount it from Disks Manager.
4) Language Support for different languages.
5) Login Window to customise login screen and other login preferences right from GUI. You can add more login screens too.
6) Networking lets you configure your network.
7) Network tools give you some nice tools like ping, which can only be done in windows using CLI, traceroute, portscan, finger, whois lookup,netstat. And casual users are never going to even see that.
8 ) Priniting lets you confiure your printer
9) Services lets you configure system services, which should be on/off.
10) Shared Folders enable you to setup which folders to be shared and which not.
11) System Log lets you see all the logs on your system.
12) System Monitor lets you know all the programs running, how much resources they're consuming, bandwidth in use, processor usage, RAM and swap usage, mounted devices and space used/left in them.
13) Time and Date lets you update/correct time and date.
14) Update Manager checks for and notifies of all updates.
15) Users and groups let you add/remove/manage all the users and user groups on your system.
All these come out of the box. You can add even more GUI utilities out as you like. And I am sure casual users or newbies won't need much more than that.

GCC isn't needed for debain with more than 15,000 softwares in the portage which isn't needed to be compiled.

Drivers don't work because manufacturers don't give driver support. In the other thread we are trying to install a reverse engineered driver for winmodem. Cause the fellow has exotic hardware. He uses netodragon internal modem, which uses motorola chipset and motorola has pulled out of making chips for internal modems since 2001. So, he has to use something that doesn't come from the manufacturer. So, it will be difficult to work with. In fact the driver he uses in windows too is for windows 2000. Cos the driver for windows XP wasn't ever made. You can't blame linux for that now.
And dependancy problem arises in linux cos linux is all about choices. It gives you multiple ways of choosing your favourite components. All the components can never be given by one distro that too by mailing it to your doorstep free of cost. Big distros like SUSe and Debain try to cover all possible softwares. But, lastly it's upon developers to choose the components of their choice. So, they may include something that favours them but it won't be present in all the distros. Go and check debian. They provide 14 CD's with almost everything coming out of the box. But, that won't be a feasible download. So, they have to compromise on what to include and what not to fit in a CD or two.

As GNUrag said are you better than the developers in such big company? If you were you wouldn't be wasting time with petty people like us, discussing topics which are a waste of everyone's time.

Those left are not novice users but fools like you. Because linux doesn't need fools who waste everyone's productive time to explain what linux can and cannot do without even bothering to give a proper look. If you hate linux so much. Stay off it. No one has forced you to use it.

[borg]

lol, didn't expect any different from you GNUrag. Infact I was pretty much expecting when you would butt in & start your screaming. Your a Linux fanatic if I've ever seen one.

For your small and limited understanding, i must say, OpenOffice is completely funded and developed by Sun Microsystems, GNOME and DotGNU is funded and developed by none other than Novell, Qt project is funded and developed by TrollTech, Several important device drivers in Linux kernel is commited to kernel cvs by IBM developers.. SGI funds the OpenGL project,

You shut up & tell me something that I don't know.

Do you think they have no clue about software development and ethics?

Yes, I do.

None of my students needed GCC to be installed.

I feel sorry for your students. Sorry for the fact that they have to put up with you.

And Windows doesnt have compilers not because you dont have to compile anything, but because of the fact that there's nothing to compile in Windows.. How many software (apart from usual GPL stuff) comes with source tell me??

Which kinda contradicts what u said earlier, that there is no need for compiling from source in Linux either cause there are binaries available. The fact everyone needs to compile something or the other once in a while. Even if they don't , installing GCC by default causes no harm whatsoever. Its a small little component.

Question No. 1: Who are you to teach engineering ethics?

Question no. 2 Who the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not ask?.

And 3, don't act as if you own Linux or something. If I criticize Linux, it is my right to do so, as a user. Linux belongs to no one. No one will die, if I say that Linux needs some changes. Its just a piece of software. There is no need for anyone here to here your unbearable blabber.

/me getting a good laugh for myself

You also need some /mental/treatment along with that. I feel sorry you man.

[GNUrag]

Originally Posted by borg

lol, didn't expect any different from you GNUrag. Infact I was pretty much expecting when you would butt in & start your screaming. Your a Linux fanatic if I've ever seen one.

Thank you so much
I also dont expect anything else from you either.
Twice every year, you come up with your sudden blabbering and flaming.. Linux is this.. its that.. developers need to get a life.. and what not..
You rock man!

[GNUrag]

Originally Posted by borg

Question no. 2 Who the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not ask?.

Your's truely is nobody you see. just a random linux lunatic who is ready to help others.

Originally Posted by borg

And 3, don't act as if you own Linux or something. If I criticize Linux, it is my right to do so, as a user. Linux belongs to no one. No one will die, if I say that Linux needs some changes. Its just a piece of software. There is no need for anyone here to here your unbearable blabber.

I dont own anything.

And also, i make it a point to give proper answers to people who are all filled till neck with suggestions and only suggestions, and have not done anything ever to help their fellow friends learn GNU/Linux.

It doesnt take any efforts to criticize you see, but fixing those suggestions does take a helluva time and efforts.

The point is, I would shut myself up if some GNOME/KDE/Other developers flames about something in GNU/Linux.. atleast he has contributed on his part, and its his right to criticize.. You on the other hand would have never barely written a single GNU GPL code, and are all filled up with suggestions about every second thing.

Just tell me if my above question is justified or not?

Originally Posted by borg

You also need some /mental/treatment along with that. I feel sorry you man.

Thank you so much for your invaluable suggestions.

[nitish_mythology]

When Wise Men talk its not wise for fools(Newbies in Linux, best example-- ME) to meddle...
All I want to say is tht pls dont use harsh language.

[tuxfan]

IMO, "Linux enginners" have already proved their credentials by making and maintaining an OS!! People questioning their ability must prove their credential first before making statements!!

[borg]

"Linux enginners" have already proved their credentials by making and maintaining an OS!!

A lot of people are making & maintaining an OS. That includes Apple, Microsoft (the same MS that Linux people like to hate so much) & many others. So going by your statement, no one should question the credentials of these companies either. Which means the end of criticism & feedback.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticising Linux. Just like there is nothing wrong with criticising Windows or Mac OS. Its just a piece of software. Its a tool that people use to do their work. Like a pencil or a vehicle. Nothing more, nothing less.

[tuxfan]

You've got good sense of humour.

But its one thing to criticse what people have done and another to criticse their "ethics".

I agree, there is nothing wrong in criticising Linux, Windows, Mac OS, YOU, ME, etc. Thats simply a matter of opinion.