Why Windows Vista will suck

[naveenchandran]

Why Windows Vista will suck
by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols

Oh! My aching head.

When I first saw ExtremeTech's Why Windows Vista Won't Suck, I thought: "Aha, sarcasm."

Nope. I was wrong.

They really were saying that Vista is pretty good.

Oh please.

First, let me say, I've been running Vista myself for quite some time. Next to me at this very moment is a Gateway 835GM. Under the hood, it has an Intel Pentium D 2.8GHz dual-core processor, an Intel 945G chipset, 1GB DDR2 (double data rate) DRAM, a 250GB SATA hard drive, and built-in Intel GMA (graphics media accelerator) 950 graphics. That's a fairly powerful machine. Which is a good thing, because it's the only PC in my office of 20 PCs that's got enough oomph to run the Windows Vista February CTP (Community Technology Preview) build 5308 without driving me into fits of rage.

Mind you, it's not enough machine for Vista. I could run any Linux with all the bells and whistles on it without a problem. But, even though this system meets Intel's recommendations for a Vista-capable Intel Professional Business Platform, it still doesn't have the graphics horsepower needed to carry off Vista's much ballyhooed three-dimensional Aero Glass interface.

My point is, though, that while I write a lot about Linux, and I prefer it, my real specialty is that I know operating systems of all types and sorts, including Vista.

So when I say Vista sucks, well, I know what I'm talking about.

"Suck" is a relative term, though. Vista will be better than XP, which has easily been Microsoft's best desktop operating system to date.

However, Vista also requires far more hardware oomph than previous Windows systems. I'd say Intel's recommendations are pretty much a minimum for Vista. I would only add that if you expect to see the fancy desktop, you need to invest in, say, an ATI Radeon XPress 200, an Nvidia nForce4, or a high-end graphics card.

The truth is that very, very few people are going to be upgrading their existing systems to Vista. To make it work well, you're really going to need a new computer. If you didn't buy your PC in 2006, I wouldn't even try to run Vista on it.

OK, so the first reason that Vista sucks is that, no matter what version you get, it's likely to be expensive. No matter what Microsoft ends up charging for it, the only way most people are likely to be running it is when they get a new PC.

Now, let's see what my colleagues at ExtremeTech have to say in Vista's defense ...

Vista is much safer and more secure. "The whole kernel has been reorganized and rewritten to help prevent software from affecting the system in unsavory ways."

Well, yes, this is certainly what Microsoft would have to do to make it truly secure. I've say that myself. Unfortunately, while Microsoft has worked hard on improving Vista's security, it's still pretty much the same old rickety kernel underneath it.

Need proof? In January, Microsoft shipped the first security patch for Vista. It was for the WMF (Windows Metafile) hole. You know, the one, that my security guru friend Larry Seltzer called, "one of those careless things Microsoft did years ago with little or no consideration for the security consequences."

Good job of cleaning up the core operating system, Microsoft!

Of course, Linux never had this kind of garbage to clean up in the first place.

The ExtremeTech guys also say that Microsoft has done a good job of cleaning up Windows' use of memory management and heaps. They're right about that.

What they don't mention is that Linux and Mac OS X have both done that kind of thing well for years. They also don't mention that for an application to actually get the most from these improvements, it will need to be rewritten. So, if you want to get the most from Vista, be sure to set some money aside for new applications as well as a new PC. You'll need it.

They also praise SuperFetch, Microsoft's new combination application pre-fetching technique and hyper-active virtual memory manager. Intelligent pre-fetching is a fine idea for boosting performance. You've been able to use it in any application written with the open-source GCC for years. Microsoft's execution of it, however, has one of the biggest "What were they thinking of?" mistakes I've seen in a long time.

You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!

I also understand that Vista will have improved TCP/IP networking. It's nice to know that they've finally done something with that open-source BSD code that's the basis of their TCP/IP network protocol.

What ExtremeTech doesn't mention, though, is that Microsoft is also planning on making it so that you can use IPSec (IP security protocol) for internal network security. This is another of their "What were they thinking of?" moments.

IPSec works fine for VPNs (virtual private networks). But, as John Pescatore, an analyst at Gartner Inc., said about this scheme, "Once you try to encrypt internal communications, your network architecture breaks." He's got that right.

Next up, they say wonderful things about Home Premium Vista having Media Center capability being built into it. Maybe I'm just a little confused here, but after looking at the feature sets, the only thing I see that's changed here is that they'll be calling the next media-enabled Windows "Home Premium Vista" instead of "Media Center Vista."

They also praise this version for having CableCard support, with the result that you'll be able to record HD (high definition broadcasts) from cable instead of being stuck with OTA (over the air) HDTV, without turning your entertainment room into an electronics lab.

Excuse me, but that's not because Microsoft is being innovative. It's because they are still not shipping CableCard cards for PCs. Come the day they finally ship -- and I'm betting the ATI OCCUR makes it out first -- I suspect MythTV and the other open-source PVR (personal video recorder) projects will be right there.

The ExtremeTech crew also has nice things to say about Vista's audio support. Mea culpa, it is better than anything else out there. So, Linux desktop designers, it's time to get cracking on audio support. Vista's still won't be out, at the earliest, until the fourth quarter of this year, and that gives you plenty of time to play catch up.

DirectX10, which is mostly used for game graphics and in the aforementioned Aero, is also much improved. It's also, however, completely different from DirectX9. Current games, current graphic cards, won't be able to do anything with it, which is why Vista also supports DirectX 9.

Here again, I'll give the Microsoft guys come credit. DirecX10 is a big improvement for the gamers. It's still not going to make your PC the equal of a dedicated game console, however.

The folks from ExtremeTech also like the fact that Vista will have many more built-in applications. Isn't this why Microsoft got into trouble with the Department of Justice a while back? Isn't this the kind of thing that has both South Korea and the European Union raking them over the coals? Why, yes. Yes, it is.

Be that as it may, as I sit here looking at my SUSE 10 Linux desktop, I can't help but notice that I have, for free, every software application I could ever want. Advantage: Linux.

At the end of the story, the ExtremeTech crew 'fesses up that "We don't know that it's going to be great just yet." True. And, I don't know that it's going to suck yet, either.

Expensive? Yes. Awful? We'll see.

What I do know, is that I really don't see a thing, not one single thing, that will make the still undelivered Vista significantly better than the Linux or the Mac OS X desktops I have in front of me today.


-- Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols

Source: http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT8288296398.html
I don't want to post this in General Section and create "Flames" there

[Satissh S]

I had read that extremetech article for a few days back, as i frequently visit extremetech. It sounded a bit biased though. Also with XGL and Aglx, i really don't think there is much hope left for vista .

[~Phenom~]

Vista will go a long way inspite of many worthy competitors.

[it_waaznt_me]

Can anyone care to explain this :

"Once you try to encrypt internal communications, your network architecture breaks." He's got that right.

I dont see any reason why encrypted network should break .. Will it matter if its internal or external if the computers within the internal network support it ..?

Moreover, this article is based on the premises that whatever "new features" Vista is promising, they are already built in Linux or Mac (say memory management ... which cant be verified), but do anyone has answer if Linux or Mac were so good why didnt they become popular in the first place ..?

There is another flaw in this article .. Vista will appear expensive to users who have computers already or who have recently purchased a computer as they will feel outdated with those expensive demands of Vista. But users, who are willing to spend money wont find this a hurdle.

I had read that article earlier, and I was about to post about it on my blog .. Anyways..

[knight17]

Originally Posted by ~Phenom~

Vista will go a long way inspite of many worthy competitors.

I fully agree with you.

I dont know why are many people are aganist MS

About security it is because of the popularity of thier software.

[Nemesis]

While Vista will certainly have its flaws just like any other Microsoft OS, I see some problems with the article here.

1. Regarding the USB Flash Drive point - I don't see why a USB drive will be knocked off while your computer is quietly sitting on your desk. And mind you, not everyone has dogs that will knock over things. This argument is based on hypothetical situations that may or may not materialize into reality.

2. Since when were PCs worse than consoles? Consoles always play the catch-up game with PCs. True that today the Xbox 360 is a monster and that you never need to upgrade consoles, by the end of this year we'll have PCs that will leave the 360 far behind.

3. Honestly, I never saw any problem with Microsoft bundling applications such as IE or WMP with its OS. If you don't like it then get something else. I don't see anyone complaining about how Linux flavors come with their own applications. Or is the "free" thing so overpowering?

Not that I'm against Linux, just posting comments on the posted article

[devarajan]

In beta suck's only let's wait for full product and discuss it........

[eddie]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

3. Honestly, I never saw any problem with Microsoft bundling applications such as IE or WMP with its OS. If you don't like it then get something else. I don't see anyone complaining about how Linux flavors come with their own applications. Or is the "free" thing so overpowering?

...and the most ignorant person award goes to....{drum beats}...Nemesis!!!
I have not read the entire article and not interested in getting into a Vista vs Linux debate but your comment was so hilarious that I just had to reply. "Linux flavors coming with their own applications?". What are you talking about man? Which Linux distro binds an Internet browser or media player with its shell? Which Linux distro forces something down your throat and doesn't allow you to uninstall it? Which distro comes with which one of its "own" applications? Its entirely your choice to install or not install some application. You can simply refuse to install any web browser on your Linux install and then code your own at your own leisure. I would love to see MS allowing me NOT to install IE or WMP. Is it possible? No. Period!

[naveenchandran]

Originally Posted by knight17

About security it is because of the popularity of thier software.

lol What I can infer from your reply is the more popular the software is the less secure it "will" be... :roll:

[praka123]

I Always wanted to remove IE and Outlook/msn messngr from my XP.i left the idea in halfway seeing the steps and reg changes you have to do.M$ simply forces you to use their apps.no wonder koreans are against M$ monopoly.See Linux,its a great freedom which it offers.

[devarajan]

Originally Posted by prakash kerala

I Always wanted to remove IE and Outlook/msn messngr from my XP.i left the idea in halfway seeing the steps and reg changes you have to do.M$ simply forces you to use their apps.no wonder koreans are against M$ monopoly.See Linux,its a great freedom which it offers.

u can remove it using nliteos i suppose

http://www.nliteos.com

And what r all the application dose MS force's i wish to know.

[Satissh S]

@prakash: You use Windows

@devarajan: Ms has always had this monopolistic behaviour. What abt windows media player, that was recently prohibited from bundling with windows in europe? This is just one Example.

[vignesh]

I waiting for Drapper and Novell`s next distro to beat vista

[GNUrag]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

3. Honestly, I never saw any problem with Microsoft bundling applications such as IE or WMP with its OS. If you don't like it then get something else. I don't see anyone complaining about how Linux flavors come with their own applications. Or is the "free" thing so overpowering?

That's the whole point of Antitrust Lawsuits being filed over Microsoft. You and I, the users never get to feel the hitch. But this practise hopelessly destroys the market for third party software vendors.

The act of destroying the markets for Netscape and Real Networks by bundling IE and WMP is the upfront example. These 2 software are tightly binded to the kernel that nothing can be dont without it.

Take the case of other Linux distributions as someone here pointed out.. You have an option of 5 browsers, 3 Office suits, 10 Window managers, 10 Media Players, 5 Instant Messengers.. and like that.. You use what you feel like or write your own .. And your system will work perfectly allright even without it.. Remember the keyword here is Antitrust

Originally Posted by it_waaznt_me

Moreover, this article is based on the premises that whatever "new features" Vista is promising, they are already built in Linux or Mac (say memory management ... which cant be verified),

1) I hope you should be aware that Microsoft uses its TCP/IP code from BSD's Net/2 and later releases... and that too shamelessly unmodified...

2) And you should be aware that Microsoft's NT kernel is based on Carniege Mellon University's Mach Kernel. Infact they hired several Mach developers to get NT kernel developed.

they copy everything man.. dont tell me otherwise. Man 'o man.. you talk about verifying memory management claim? I can list you several such things, by merely copy pasting from groklaw.net

[it_waaznt_me]

MS forces users to use IE by integrating it to the operating system core. This not only takes away the freedom of choice but also make the whole operating system vulnerable to IE' security holes.

Now to the thread.
I forgot to quote this in my prev reply:

Originally Posted by cigar, in the response thread

The prefetching in gcc and SuperFetch are two entirely different things. It's wrong to compare them.
Prefetching in gcc is a compiler optimization technique for starting transfers from main memory to cpu-cache in advance, so that they are present in the cpu-cache when you need them. Transferring from memory may take 100 or more cpu-cycles, so it's important do this kind of prefetching in advance. Such prefetching is a cpu-thing, not an OS thing. It's up to the compiler to insert the right prefetch instructions, this requires no intervention from the OS. Most serious compilers have had this for a long time, also, I imagine, compilers for Windows.

Prefetching in SuperFetch is, as I understand it, to start transferring data from disk to main memory in advance. This is definitely an OS thing. I believe Windows has done this also for a long time, in a similar fashion as most unixes (and linux). But SuperFetch appears to be something more, in that data from different locations (files) are fetched together in anticipation that they will be used together. This is not done in linux.

And comparing consoles to desktop reminds me of this.

I am sure SJVN would be cursing the moment he decided to post the article without any homework.

[Edit]Anurag, I had Superfetch thingy in my mind when I wrote that. I know about TCP IP implementation from BSD.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by it_waaznt_me

I forgot to quote this in my prev reply:

Who ever this cigar is...should look at the output of "free -m" under a linux console and the latest swap prefetch patches that will be in OFFICIAL kernel very soon. free -m tells you how much caching Linux does in RAM by anticipating the things to come. Just saying "it is not done is Linux" is not sufficient

[praka123]

Originally Posted by Satissh S

@prakash: You use Windows

Unfortunately i need to keep M$ XP as my sister insists Windows XP be there. .

[it_waaznt_me]

Eddie bhai when its not there in official kernel yet then why boast about it claiming all the new features are already available in *nix and Mac. That was my point.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by it_waaznt_me

Eddie bhai when its not there in official kernel yet then why boast about it claiming all the new features are already available in *nix and Mac. That was my point.

Swap prefetch is not comparable to Superfetch instead the already existing caching capability is. Here is a look of what I meant when I was talking about free -m

$ free -m
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:           495        481         14          0         43        221
-/+ buffers/cache:        216        279
Swap:          768          0        768

Can you see that Linux kernel has cached 221MB of files in RAM by anticipating? It depends on what kind of applications I am using right now, and what related apps I might need. What is not in the official kernel will fill up SWAP and not the RAM. The main difference they have added is that the caching can be done on a removable medium but the core is still same.

Further, no one is saying that ALL the new features are already available. You can see that the original author of the article has said that Vista will do something good with audio and Linux has to play catch-up. Thus no one in Linux community is spreading FUD (like what MS does). What we are saying is that MS has a history of copying an already existing feature from some OS and then claiming that they have done something miraculous!!! If you call clearing the facts as boasting...then...

[it_waaznt_me]

SuperFetch is about IO fetch. Google for Read Ahead optimization and you will know what I am talking about.

[mediator]

Windows is my secondary OS! Xp has been doing a very good job for the last 1.5 yrs...I rarely encounter any blue screen......but lets hope vista's frequency of blue screens reduces further and startuptime also reduces!
Any further improvement in vista will definately surprise me!

[Nemesis]

Ahhh a minor slip-up on my side - I somehow forgot that Linux distros let you choose not to install certain applications. My bad.

@GNU: I do understand AntiTrust. I was just saying that I personally don't care about what MS bundles with its OS as I can easily choose to ignore anything I don't like. Do you think it will help if people could be educated about options available to them? I mean most people don't realize the security risks associated with IE and only switch to other browsers when they are actually affected by spyware.

[knight17]

Originally Posted by naveenchandran

lol What I can infer from your reply is the more popular the software is the less secure it "will" be... :roll:

May I explain what I thought.
Everyone claimed Opensource software will remain bug free due to immense support from the commmunity.
Have you heard the news that Firefox has more security vulnerability that IE.Just search for that you will know what i meant
When FF become popular the bad guys targeted it.Same is the case of Windows also
No i dont meant more popular software are less secure but they will be targeted more.I hope you got what I meant.
---
You should also remeber that windows is popular among home users,and finding holes in such software will return the bad guys maximum result for what they are doing.

[knight17]

The truth is that very, very few people are going to be upgrading their existing systems to Vista. To make it work well, you're really going to need a new computer. If you didn't buy your PC in 2006, I wouldn't even try to run Vista on it.

Windows Vista will also have an option to run in a minimum mode [for PCs having less hardware horsepower] I heard that it is like the windows classic theme, but I think that the one, which ships with Vista, might be much better. Problem Solved.

No matter what Microsoft ends up charging for it, the only way most people are likely to be running it is when they get a new PC.

I do not know what the author really meant. If he is talking in a sense about the hardware required for running Vista, In my opinion he is mistaken, As told earlier there will be options for running vista on underpowered machines too. The release date of Vista is also giving customer’s time for upgrading their Computers t run windows Vista.

What they do not mention is that Linux and Mac OS X have both done that kind of thing well for years. They also do not mention that for an application to actually get the most from these improvements, it will need to be rewritten. So, if you want to get the most from Vista, be sure to set some money aside for new applications as well as a new PC. You'll need it.

Yes, Linux and MAC OS X may have that for years but Microsoft knows how to reach the technology to the masses. Why they don’t manage to gain popularity with their innovations?
Many say that GUI was first used by Apple and Microsoft copied them. However, may I ask them do Microsoft rob their source code, I think they have done that in a legal way. The memory management issue is also the same, they might have made it into practice[Like Apple did for GUI] but Microsoft is really going to gain from this due to the wide popularity and acceptance of Windows

You see, with SuperFetch you can a USB 2.0-based flash drive as a fetch buffer between your RAM and your hard disk. Let me spell that out for you. Vista will put part of your running application on a device that can be kicked off, knocked out, or that your dog can carry away as a chew toy. Do you see the problem here? Me too!

I haven't thought about my dog carrying my USB drive away. It is only a possibility[SuperFetch],If you are not going to use that you are not losing any thing.

Next up, they say wonderful things about Home Premium Vista having Media Center capability being built into it. Maybe I'm just a little confused here, but after looking at the feature sets, the only thing I see that's changed here is that they'll be calling the next media-enabled Windows "Home Premium Vista" instead of "Media Center Vista."

I think he is right but don’t know much more about it.

They also praise this version for having Cable Card support, with the result that you'll be able to record HD (high definition broadcasts) from cable instead of being stuck with OTA (over the air) HDTV, without turning your entertainment room into an electronics lab.

Excuse me, but that's not because Microsoft is being innovative. It's because they are still not shipping Cable Card cards for PCs. Come the day they finally ship -- and I'm betting the ATI OCCUR makes it out first -- I suspect Myth TV and the other open-source PVR (personal video recorder) projects will be right there.

Microsoft need not ship CableCard cards but the hardware vendors will,Like Media center PCs having TVTuner cards if the custmer is willing to pay the Hardware vendor they will get that.

Here again, I'll give the Microsoft guys come credit. DirecX10 is a big improvement for the gamers. It's still not going to make your PC the equal of a dedicated game console, however

Yes, a PC is not equal to a console.Because it is not exclusively meant for gaming.
However, there are numerous things a PC can do and a console can't

The folks from ExtremeTech also like the fact that Vista will have many more built-in applications. Isn't this why Microsoft got into trouble with the Department of Justice a while back? Isn't this the kind of thing that has both South Korea and the European Union raking them over the coals? Why, yes. Yes, it is.

Good for the users wjo are using windows,about the legal problems thats none of our business.If the court asks Microsoft has to answer not us.

Be that as it may, as I sit here looking at my SUSE 10 Linux desktop, I can't help but notice that I have, for free, every software application I could ever want. Advantage: Linux.

At the end of the story, the ExtremeTech crew 'fesses up that "We don't know that it's going to be great just yet." True. And, I don't know that it's going to suck yet, either.

Expensive? Yes. Awful? We'll see. What I do know, is that I really don't see a thing, not one single thing, that will make the still undelivered Vista significantly better than the Linux or the Mac OS X desktops I have in front of me today.

I agree about the free applications,many are available for Windows too.but you must notice that if a little effort is taken most of them can be transported for windows as they are open.

You are talking about you only, not about the millions out there who are not technically sound,and dosent have time to learn zillions of commands.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open Source Supporters please forgive me if i have said anything wrong,If you notice anything wrong in my statements please PM me.

---------------------------------


knight17.

[GNUrag]

Originally Posted by knight17

However, may I ask them do Microsoft rob their source code, I think they have done that in a legal way.

Legal? If it were legal in any sense, then what were the various lawyers all around EU, and from IBM, Apple doing? Were they foolish enough to sue M$ for nothing?

Originally Posted by knight17

The memory management issue is also the same, they might have made it into practice[Like Apple did for GUI] but Microsoft is really going to gain from this due to the wide popularity and acceptance of Windows

The popularity and acceptance of Windows is a cr@p lame excuse. M$ threatens OEM vendours with dire consequences and forcefully creates a market.. This is the truth behind acceptance you are seeing now.

[knight17]

knight17 wrote:
However, may I ask them do Microsoft rob their source code, I think they have done that in a legal way.

Legal? If it were legal in any sense, then what were the various lawyers all around EU, and from IBM, Apple doing? Were they foolish enough to sue M$ for nothing?

As far as i know there is no law suits aganisy M$ for robbing code.
I dont know if i am correct.If not plz forgive me and correct me
regards[/quote]

[eddie]

Originally Posted by it_waaznt_me

SuperFetch is about IO fetch. Google for Read Ahead optimization and you will know what I am talking about.

Sorry I completely forgot about this discussion.
IO fetch? IO fetch to where man? What are you talking about? SuperFetch is just fetching (caching) files to a place that it thinks can be used as a temporary storage system. Talking in Linux terms, add additional SWAP or use the existing one by anticipating your usage. What are you intending to say here?

[eddie]

Originally Posted by knight17

Windows Vista will also have an option to run in a minimum mode [for PCs having less hardware horsepower] I heard that it is like the windows classic theme, but I think that the one, which ships with Vista, might be much better. Problem Solved.

Absolutely!!! So I should pay them hundreds of dollars (or thousands of rupees) so that I can use a crippled OS? Problem solved 100%

Yes, Linux and MAC OS X may have that for years but Microsoft knows how to reach the technology to the masses. Why they don’t manage to gain popularity with their innovations?

...because they don't use evil methods of business. They don't force OEM vendors to bundle their OS on systems. They don't patent technologies (even if they didn't invent them) and then force the competition out of business by suing them. Have you looked at the details of the latest AJAX patent? If you haven't, then you should...

Good for the users wjo are using windows,about the legal problems thats none of our business.If the court asks Microsoft has to answer not us.

If you don't care about these legal issues right now, then I am sure you will care when there is no competition left and MS will force you to pay through your nose.

[kato]

Originally Posted by knight17

Windows Vista will also have an option to run in a minimum mode [for PCs having less hardware horsepower] I heard that it is like the windows classic theme, but I think that the one, which ships with Vista, might be much better. Problem Solved.

I have something to say on this one as many people have been saying Vista is in news and all speculations rather than being a microsoft product is its GUI. If you get Vista and use it with windows classic theme what is actually its use then except you get some softwares. Here all those people who want Eye candy would have preoblem. And in India all want Eye Candy regardless what the hell is inside the OS or whatever is bundled with it.(I am not talking about use but many people who will try to install it even after knowing it has high requirements)

[eddie]

Originally Posted by kato

I have something to say on this one as many people have been saying Vista is in news and all speculations rather than being a microsoft product is its GUI. If you get Vista and use it with windows classic theme what is actually its use then except you get some softwares. Here all those people who want Eye candy would have preoblem. And in India all want Eye Candy regardless what the hell is inside the OS or whatever is bundled with it.(I am not talking about use but many people who will try to install it even after knowing it has high requirements)

Its not just about the Eye Candy yaar. Its about all the additional BS injects MS in its OS so that more and more people upgrade their hardware which in turn leads to more hardware sales. More hardware sales = hardware manufacturers happy = better support = well you get the picture.
Just tell me, how many pages of tweak guides do you follow after doing a fresh XP Pro install? It has to be at least 15 pages; which might involve editing registry, turning off services and what not.