Hard disk life cycle issues of Laptops running Linux

[j_h]

Hi guys,
I found this. My Toshiba Hard Disk was also infected so I removed linux from my laptop.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...ort/+bug/59695
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=591503
http://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php...ds_under_Linux
Please read that before doing anything in linux.
My desktop is safe so I have Arch linux in only my desktop.
What are your comments on this issue. This bug has been there for so long.

[Hitboxx]

It is a firmware bug of the manufacturers who assign aggressive load cycles on the laptops and affects only certain laptops, non-existent on desktops.

Solution:

sudo hdparm -B 254 /dev/sda

If not 254, 255 should work.

*use at your own risk OR contact the manufacturer for a firmware update.

[j_h]

With that code, the head will never park. It works but not a very good solution but its the best available.

[Hitboxx]

A note:
Fedora people here need not worry, it doesn't address the cycles as others Linuses do

Personally I don't think it is as grave as it is made to look, a hard disk will generally pull through its 3/4 year life cycle. It is the same as regular shutdowns of computers will reduce the life of them in some ways.

[siddharthmakwana]

i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?

[abhinandh]

Originally Posted by siddharthmakwana

i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?

FALSE. Desktop drives are not affected at all (only some laptop drives are) and my hard disk is running linux for the past 5 years

[Ron]

wht? guys ur scarin me.....I thought linux is trust worthy.........
bt now it seems...........

[j_h]

Originally Posted by Ron

wht? guys ur scarin me.....I thought linux is trust worthy.........
bt now it seems...........

Basically its not the fault of linux. Its due to the crazy hard drive manufacturers that design hard drives to suit the need of windows.
Here is the explanation of what is happening.
Harddisk's head loads and unloads a number of times. If the hard disk is idle, then it parks. What happens in windows is that the idle time is very less. So, the harddisk manufacturers set the harddisk according to the disk access pattern of windows. What happens in Linux and also in Mac is that the disk access pattern is different. The disk is accessed much less often. So, The hard drive head Loads/unloads much more than it does in windows. Tipically a hard disk has a load/unload cycle life expectancy of around 60000(not sure if its 60K or 600K). This gives the life at around 4years of 12hr use daily.
Now since, in linux (and also mac) the load/unload cycle is very high, the life expectancy reduces to around 8 months. (read it in a real life case cenario in a blog. The guy had to replace 3 hard drives).

Whose Fault is it?
It is not linux's fault. Less disk access is better. The manufacturers are the ones that need to be blamed here. They are the ones who set the default setting to suit windows.

Whats the fix ?
As posted by hitboxx, the code does not let the head park and is up all the time. This works but you will have to look at the temperature of your hard drives more closely. The thread in the ubuntu forums has detailed info on the fix (see my first post).

Why am I angry ?
I have been using linux since redhat9. I found out about this bug YESTERDAY!!!. I think things like this should be more publicised. It should be made a sticky everywhere in the linux forums. I f***ed up my thinkpad's hard drive a year ago. KDE started showing some s.m.a.r.t failure errors. I quickly removed kde, installed windows and sold the laptop to a less tech savy guy.
Now, i had been using ubuntu8.04 on my new hp for the past 4 months and yeasterday while randomly checking bugs in launchpad, i found it. This laptop has already got a load cycle of 18K and its been just around 4-5 months i have bought.

So, I just wanted you guys to know that there is a problem that exists and people are losing hard drives . Now, i have linux only in my desktop. Until some list of blacklisted drives and the drives that have no problem are compiled, i have no choice but to stay away from linux in my lappy. I could use the 255/254 fix but its a dirty one and its USE AT YOUR OWN RISK kind of fix.

So, if any guys here runnig linux on laptops please check my first post of this thread, goto the ubuntu forums link i provided and find out if your harddrive suffers. Ignorance is not Bliss.

Originally Posted by siddharthmakwana

i have heard that linux produces bad sector on hard drive.... is it true....?

No, it does not produce bad sectors or kills all drives. check if yours is infected.
I have Arch linux installed on my desktop and its doing very well. No worries. Its just that I advise you to check if you are the unlucky one with the faulty hard drive.

[unni]

Man, you raised my blood pressure. Can't wait to reach room and check it out. Me too have an HP lappy.

[Faun]

lol...here it is reverse. Almost all HDDs on which I install XP, gets bad sooner or later. But ones with Linux are working fine. Sometimes I think there is problem with my mobo, but who knows ?

Few days back Dead Space was working fine but now it stutters :/

[Ron]

@j_h thnks

[Ross]

Does this bug affects desktop hard disks too???
I am using Ubuntu on Seagate 320 G HDD(ST3320620A), do i really need to worry????

[j_h]

Originally Posted by Ross

Does this bug affects desktop hard disks too???
I am using Ubuntu on Seagate 320 G HDD(ST3320620A), do i really need to worry????

I dont think so. Its seen on laptop harddisks.

[esumitkumar]

Originally Posted by j_h

Basically its not the fault of linux. Its due to the crazy hard drive manufacturers that design hard drives to suit the need of windows.
Here is the explanation of what is happening.
Harddisk's head loads and unloads a number of times. If the hard disk is idle, then it parks. What happens in windows is that the idle time is very less. So, the harddisk manufacturers set the harddisk according to the disk access pattern of windows. What happens in Linux and also in Mac is that the disk access pattern is different. The disk is accessed much less often. So, The hard drive head Loads/unloads much more than it does in windows. Tipically a hard disk has a load/unload cycle life expectancy of around 60000(not sure if its 60K or 600K). This gives the life at around 4years of 12hr use daily.
Now since, in linux (and also mac) the load/unload cycle is very high, the life expectancy reduces to around 8 months. (read it in a real life case cenario in a blog. The guy had to replace 3 hard drives).

Whose Fault is it?
It is not linux's fault. Less disk access is better. The manufacturers are the ones that need to be blamed here. They are the ones who set the default setting to suit windows.

Whats the fix ?
As posted by hitboxx, the code does not let the head park and is up all the time. This works but you will have to look at the temperature of your hard drives more closely. The thread in the ubuntu forums has detailed info on the fix (see my first post).

Why am I angry ?
I have been using linux since redhat9. I found out about this bug YESTERDAY!!!. I think things like this should be more publicised. It should be made a sticky everywhere in the linux forums. I f***ed up my thinkpad's hard drive a year ago. KDE started showing some s.m.a.r.t failure errors. I quickly removed kde, installed windows and sold the laptop to a less tech savy guy.
Now, i had been using ubuntu8.04 on my new hp for the past 4 months and yeasterday while randomly checking bugs in launchpad, i found it. This laptop has already got a load cycle of 18K and its been just around 4-5 months i have bought.

So, I just wanted you guys to know that there is a problem that exists and people are losing hard drives . Now, i have linux only in my desktop. Until some list of blacklisted drives and the drives that have no problem are compiled, i have no choice but to stay away from linux in my lappy. I could use the 255/254 fix but its a dirty one and its USE AT YOUR OWN RISK kind of fix.

So, if any guys here runnig linux on laptops please check my first post of this thread, goto the ubuntu forums link i provided and find out if your harddrive suffers. Ignorance is not Bliss.


No, it does not produce bad sectors or kills all drives. check if yours is infected.
I have Arch linux installed on my desktop and its doing very well. No worries. Its just that I advise you to check if you are the unlucky one with the faulty hard drive.

OMG ..man u gave me heart attack if its true ?

My 2 yr old Acer laptop's HDD died just cuz i was playing formatting and installing various versions of linux every week ????

Also now I have installed a new HDD 80 GB ,
installed Ubuntu 8.10 fully on it
Should I run ,remove linux and install XP ???

[red_devil]

^^ how about trying the solution Hitboxx suggested ??

{ but do read THIS PAGE thoroughly before attempting any such thing}

[NucleusKore]

Originally Posted by j_h

I have been using linux since redhat9. I found out about this bug YESTERDAY!!!.

Been using since RH 7.0 and came to know of this only today

Thanks for sharing. I have to be very careful when recommending linux for laptops, maybe first boot with a openSUSE liveCD and probe the hardware

I do hope eeepc does not have problems, just got one today :-P

[j_h]

Originally Posted by esumitkumar

OMG ..man u gave me heart attack if its true ?

My 2 yr old Acer laptop's HDD died just cuz i was playing formatting and installing various versions of linux every week ????

Also now I have installed a new HDD 80 GB ,
installed Ubuntu 8.10 fully on it
Should I run ,remove linux and install XP ???

You should find out whether your hard drive is under risk.
Here is how you do it.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...46&postcount=2
Best of luck

[Ross]

Originally Posted by j_h

I dont think so. Its seen on laptop harddisks.

Ok,
but the link you mentioned in first post doesnt says anything like that it affects Laptop HDDs only.

( Anyways i better remove Linux until there is any fix.)

[j_h]

Originally Posted by Ross

Ok,
but the link you mentioned in first post doesnt says anything like that it affects Laptop HDDs only.

( Anyways i better remove Linux until there is any fix.)

This load/unload is done by laptops to save power. It should not be a problem in desktops. If you want to clear your mind , check this post to find out if yours is infected. http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...46&postcount=2. I also have linux on desktop. Dont worry. Its laptop specific problem.

[Ross]

Originally Posted by j_h

This load/unload is done by laptops to save power. It should not be a problem in desktops. If you want to clear your mind , check this post to find out if yours is infected. http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...46&postcount=2. I also have linux on desktop. Dont worry. Its laptop specific problem.

check out this link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...95/comments/97 , it says it does affects Desktop HDDs too .

[j_h]

^yes. I read it. I don't know what to say.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...95/comments/28
Check the link more info

[Hitboxx]

Quoting the link

However, keep in mind that due to another bug added to this one, even desktop computers with desktop drives can end with this kind of settings, AND the 20 seconds idle set by ubuntu's scripts is WAY too small

It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.

For those who can't come to gripes with the situation and are getting paranoid (justifiably), I strongly recommend dropping (Ubuntu)Linux now, lest you come later and then shout all over the forums about it. Prevention is better than cure, so better do it now.

*The reason why I might consider it a non-issue or a lesser grave issue is that the entire topic about it has went down subsequent threads in Ubuntu forums, meaning it is not that hot a topic it is made out to be here, which in itself says the issue is almost sorted. Of course, these are my opinions. YOMV.

Also I would like to add that it would help in your confidence if you can visit the #Ubuntu support channel on IRC, where you will get a direct reply, once and for all, letting you know on the issues.

[NucleusKore]

Originally Posted by j_h

You should find out whether your hard drive is under risk.
Here is how you do it.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...46&postcount=2
Best of luck

Thanks

Originally Posted by Hitboxx

Quoting the link

It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.

Thanks for the clarification

[esumitkumar]

Originally Posted by Hitboxx

Quoting the link

It is a Ubuntu issue, not the entire Linux fraternity. This thread has always been a Ubuntu issue (pfft title.!). So people on Ubuntu should question/ask/care more probably. Like I said before, you are making a mountain of a mole (I agree a somewhat placid idea), it is fixed in many distros, and subsequent updates in Ubuntu will fix it too or might have already, I'm not sure. Don't be paranoid, please! And don't FUD, you will make others scared. Probably dig more on it at Ubuntu forums.

For those who can't come to gripes with the situation and are getting paranoid (justifiably), I strongly recommend dropping (Ubuntu)Linux now, lest you come later and then shout all over the forums about it. Prevention is better than cure, so better do it now.

*

hmm..so if windows doesnt install on my PC..is this a good situation to try
Fedora 10 or Mandriva 2009 Spring One (distro hopping excuse )

Fedora 10 or Mandriva dont have these issues right ? for laptops ??

[j_h]

Originally Posted by esumitkumar

hmm..so if windows doesnt install on my PC..is this a good situation to try
Fedora 10 or Mandriva 2009 Spring One (distro hopping excuse )

Fedora 10 or Mandriva dont have these issues right ? for laptops ??

Opensuse had it. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=386555
But now it is marked as solved. so I am waiting for the release of opensuse 11.1 to try.
Dont know if the bug is in fedora/mandriva. in any case, its better to check load cycles using smartmontools after installing the distros.
http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/
Please post your observations after installing fedora/mandriva. I also need a distro for my laptop. I am too afraid to try the hdparm fix . People have noticed the temperature of their harddrives rising after using that fix. Cant wait for dec18. opensuse 11.1 will release that day.

[Vishal Patil]

does this affect desktop harddirves too as you specifically mentioned the word laptop.

[esumitkumar]

Am I affected by this ???

SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
Please note the following marginal Attributes:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 041 033 045 Old_age Always FAILING_NOW 59 (0 11 60 58)

sumit@sumit-laptop:~$ sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 17776

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 10
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f 100 253 006 Pre-fail Always - 0
3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0003 095 094 000 Pre-fail Always - 0
4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age Always - 217
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 036 Pre-fail Always - 0
7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f 065 060 030 Pre-fail Always - 3374749
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 331
10 Spin_Retry_Count 0x0013 100 100 034 Pre-fail Always - 0
12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age Always - 337
187 Reported_Uncorrect 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
189 High_Fly_Writes 0x003a 076 076 000 Old_age Always - 24
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 041 033 045 Old_age Always FAILING_NOW 59 (0 19 60 58)
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 260
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 17780
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 059 067 000 Old_age Always - 59 (0 13 0 0)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered 0x001a 090 054 000 Old_age Always - 116212686
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0012 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0010 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x003e 200 199 000 Old_age Always - 3
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate 0x0000 100 253 000 Old_age Offline - 0
202 TA_Increase_Count 0x0032 100 253 000 Old_age Always - 0

[j_h]

Originally Posted by esumitkumar

Am I affected by this ???

SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED
Please note the following marginal Attributes:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 041 033 045 Old_age Always FAILING_NOW 59 (0 11 60 58)

sumit@sumit-laptop:~$ sudo smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 17776

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 10
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f 100 253 006 Pre-fail Always - 0
3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0003 095 094 000 Pre-fail Always - 0
4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age Always - 217
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 036 Pre-fail Always - 0
7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f 065 060 030 Pre-fail Always - 3374749
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 331
10 Spin_Retry_Count 0x0013 100 100 034 Pre-fail Always - 0
12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age Always - 337
187 Reported_Uncorrect 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
189 High_Fly_Writes 0x003a 076 076 000 Old_age Always - 24
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022 041 033 045 Old_age Always FAILING_NOW 59 (0 19 60 58)
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 260
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 092 092 000 Old_age Always - 17780
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 059 067 000 Old_age Always - 59 (0 13 0 0)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered 0x001a 090 054 000 Old_age Always - 116212686
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0012 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0010 100 100 000 Old_age Offline - 0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x003e 200 199 000 Old_age Always - 3
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate 0x0000 100 253 000 Old_age Offline - 0
202 TA_Increase_Count 0x0032 100 253 000 Old_age Always - 0

Power_On_Hours = 331
Load_Cycle_Count = 17780
So that makes it 53.71 Cycles / hr. You can now calculate how long your hard disk will last by taking into consideration the number of hours you use it daily.

Also, check that airflow temperature. its 59 in your case.

A quote from this page: http://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php...ds_under_Linux

"Note that modern laptop drives are supposed to unload frequently to save power. Unless the unloading is excessive, disabling powersaving is not a good idea. It seems that most modern drives are rated for 600,000 load/unload cycles which translates to about two years of uptime at 35 unloads per hour. Even when assuming continuous 12 hours of usage everyday, this means the drive will only reach its rated load/unload cycle limit after four years and shouldn't be considered malfunctioning. Please only report cases where the expected uptime is significantly lower than two years."

Here is the explanation of the S.M.A.R.T Parameters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.

[thewisecrab]

Phew. Glad that my desktop is not as vulnerable

[esumitkumar]

Thanks ..I have switched to XP now