Is This The Right Time To Upgrade???

[caleb]

Hello Gentlemen,

My current PC is used for gaming for at least 5 hours a day between my 3 children & me. I mostly play games such as Far Cry, Serious Sam II, Juiced whereas my kids play games such as King Kong, Spiderman & Harry Potter series etc

I Currently own a PC with the following config:
PIV 2.4Ghz
Mercury 845GVM Motherboard
533Mhz FSB
1Gb Ram 333 DDR (512mbx2)
GeForce 6200 AGP-8x 256MB DDR
120Gb + 40Gb ATA Hard Disk(s)
Win XP Professional SP2
LG Dual Layer DVD Writer
Pinnacle 50i TV Tuner/Capture Card

After having read The Penny Pincher, Flatter Platters & Bazaar section(s) in Digit AUG 2006 issue the upgrade bug has bitten me and the maximum budget I have for an upgrade is Rs.20000/-

The following is the upgrade that I'm looking at (after having read Agent001' suggestions):
Intel Pentium D 805
Intel Original 945GNTL
Transcend 512 MB DDR2 667 MHz
Forsa GeForce7600GS 256mb DDR2
Samsung 80Gb SATA

And my questions are:

1). Do you think that my current config is good enough for at least another year?
2). Do you think that the upgrade I’ve mentioned above is worth it? keeping in mind my current configuration?
3). Which of my current hardware will I be able to still use with the above mentioned upgrade (apart from DVD writer & TV Tuner)?
4). The above upgrade will cost me approx Rs.23500 (as per the price list in the AUG 06 issue) i.e. Rs.3500 more than my MAX budget so where can I compromise? Or do you have an alternative config which will fit in my budget?

Thankyou in advance for all your valuable advise & Suggestions,
Caleb

[Stalker]

1) once directx 10 cards next year are released, the Geforce 7 series will be outdated..
2) if u play Farcry, serious sam, ur current config is OK!!If u want to play FEAR, oblivion at the highest settings .......u require a better gfx card
3) ur HDD..........
does 845 support agp 8x??

[Third Eye]

just hold down...wait for Dx10 cards.

[NikhilVerma]

I don't really know what people have in mind when they say a card will become outdated ... Sure u won't be able to play the games at 10x7 with AA and AF but are u that kind of a gamer ? Even the geforce 4 series isn't outdated yet ... I've played Doom III on mine ... with medium settings. So the whole outdated issue is not really important.

[Stalker]

@NikhilVerma - isn't Doom 3 kinda old......i mean to say that with Dx10, newer technologies will be released, like sm3.0 was released with dx 9.0c
even i had a Geforce 4 mx, but nowadays almost every game demands a pixel shader support, which tat card didn't have!

[tarey_g]

I suggest to wait for DX10 breed of cards if u can wait 6 months . or dont go for a complete system upgrade , just upgrade the card to 7600gs then do a complete system upgrade after a year.

[NikhilVerma]

Originally Posted by Stalker

@NikhilVerma - isn't Doom 3 kinda old......i mean to say that with Dx10, newer technologies will be released, like sm3.0 was released with dx 9.0c
even i had a Geforce 4 mx, but nowadays almost every game demands a pixel shader support, which tat card didn't have!

I was just giving an example of the fact that even the oldest of cards can play rather new games well enough ... so when the DirectX10 cards come out 7 series can't really be ignored ... And yeah new technologies will be release d but again when Dx10 card come they won't be any cheaper ... You might have to wait a long time before one is affordable ... so if one can wait quite a long time then sure go on ...

[paul_007]

Originally Posted by NikhilVerma

I don't really know what people have in mind when they say a card will become outdated ... Sure u won't be able to play the games at 10x7 with AA and AF but are u that kind of a gamer ? Even the geforce 4 series isn't outdated yet ... I've played Doom III on mine ... with medium settings. So the whole outdated issue is not really important.

hi nikhil you have made an important point which is very true and i completely agree with u...

even older cards an still play most of the current games , though at lower settings , i am sure even geforce 6 series cards will last for many years if u r an average gamer...


and also u cant simply wait for better technology(DX10 cards), as said by nikhil , DX10 cards wont b cheaper when they arrive , by the time they will b affordable then again DX11 cards will appear and this circle will go on

what at most u can do is go for best affordable hardware u can buy
geforce 7 series are really good and will last for many years( even my AGP 8X 6800 GT is still going strong , and i have played every game at 1024 x 768 resolution , though not at max details)......dont wait for DX10 cards

[caleb]

Hello Stalker, Tech Mind, Nikhil Verma, tarey g & Paul007,

Thanks a million for all your replies & have read them with great interest as I was eagerly waiting for them. I know that this reply is rather long but I'd like you to know what I "think" know rather than keep clarifying myself in each post. I do understand where most of you are coming from as far as the DirectX10 is concerned and am also aware that sometime in 2007 gaming will go thru "major overhaul".

Now my primary concern is that my mobo has a 8xAGP (yes Stalker, Mercury 845GVM mobo does support 8xAGP). Unfortunately it has now become reletively difficult to find 7000 series AGP cards in Mumbai (even in Lamington road) as almost all dealers & retailers prefer to keep the PCI-e cards. When you do find an AGP card, in 7000 series, there is a considerable difference in price when it comes to the same graphics card in PCI-e (i.e. PCI-e cards are far more cheaper than AGP). Also the PCI-e, as you all know, is 16x whereas AGP is just 8x

Now if I take your suggestion to upgrade only the graphics card (rather expensive AGP 7000 series) than once again I'm stuck with an 8xAGP. A few months ago I played FarCry on another PC with GeForce 6200 PCI-e card (my PC has the same card in AGP version) and I saw that there is a major boost in performance in PCI-e card.

The future is obviously the PCI-e, so coming back to my original questions, IF I UPGRADE THE CONFIG I'VE MENTIONED IN MY POST, this time...without buying a graphics card as I don't mind waiting for DirectX10 cards (especially after the convincing suggestions from all of you)...I say this on the basis of what Digit's Agent001 said in AUG 2006 issue about the D 805 with Intel 945GNTL chipset being able to play all the current games at slightly lower settings (since I am doing the same anyway with the my current 8xAGP6200 card) DO YOU THINK THAT I'LL BE ABLE TO JUST ADD DIRECT X 10 COMPATIBLE GRAPHICS CARD LATER ON TO THAT CONFIG?

Stalker could you please clarify how I will be able to use my HDD in a SATA supporting mobo as my curent HDD is not SATA? if you can guide me to a link or give a detailed reply regarding the same will be much appreciated...Thanks.

Also if I do upgrade will my current 1gb memory be totallly redundant?

I'm also waiting for your suggestions regarding some best alternative upgrades in Rs.20000

Once again gentlemen thank you for all your replies...keep'em coming...will read each of your replies with great interest...sorry about the long post.

Caleb

[Stalker]

@caleb
my friend had brought the foll config last month
P4 2.66Ghz with EM64T & HT
D101GGC..........with X200 onboard gfx
http://www.intel.com/products/mother...1ggc/index.htm
the mobo supports both SATA and ATA IDE interfaces, supports lga 775
640 mb DDR RAM
he can play aLL the latest games at medium settings and also has a x16 pci-e slot for future upgrades. The upgrade cost him abt 12k

[s18000rpm]

hey caleb, why not upgrade to Core2Duo processor & M/B. they themselves will cost around 20k & then just increase your budget for the Gfx card, which'll cost 7k.
i think this upgrade will make your PC "future proof" for another 2-3 years. (excluding gfx. card)

[Stalker]

945GNTL supports pci-e, so u will be able to add a dx10 card later, but i feel an AMD solution will be better
Also don't invest in AGP, cards are expensive and the newer cards eg. 7800 do not have AGP support

[tarey_g]

I too suggest to go for an AMD processor and motherboard in mid range procesors , 3200/3500 will be a good choice with a pci-e motherboard . Core 2 duo are costly but if u have that kind of budget they are currently the best ones .

[caleb]

Once again Thank you for all your answers & suggestions. Here is another question:

I went thru the Intel link (provided by Stalker) for D101GGC board and found the following 3 pieces of information in the "Expansion Capabilities" section:

1.) Two PCI Conventional* bus connectors
2.) One PCI Express* x1 bus add-in card connector
3.) One PCI Express* x16 bus add-in card connector

Does that mean that there are 2 PCI-e slots i.e. I can add 2 PCI-e cards if I want to? ... If YES explain if NOT explain.

I ask this question because I keep reading that same or similar info on almost all new motherboards.

Excuse my ignorance as I've recently taken to computers and pretty much learned EVERYTHING about computers from reading Digit Magazine each month so pls bear with me and my age (I'm almost 40) and explain to me in the most simplest form possible.

Having said that I've learned immensly reading the discussions in this forum (I've been reading this form for about a year now...but have just decided to join now because I didn't want to look "too dumb" for you advanced gentlemen...btw it is not meant to be sarcastic I turly have learned much from all of you and look forward to more. What I'm really impressed about all of you is the ability to convey your message in so few words but to the point & effectively...but give this old man a break & reply with a few extra sentences for me as I'm not as fast as you gentlemen.

Hey but don't forget my question.

Thanks a million

[QwertyManiac]

Originally Posted by caleb

1.) Two PCI Conventional* bus connectors
2.) One PCI Express* x1 bus add-in card connector
3.) One PCI Express* x16 bus add-in card connector

Does that mean that there are 2 PCI-e slots i.e. I can add 2 PCI-e cards if I want to? ... If YES explain if NOT explain.

PCI 'Conventional' is the same slot as was there on your 845, its not the Express variant which is only 1 on your motherboard. So think of it to be a slot for Soundcards or TV Tuner and NOT Graphic cards which nowadays need only AGP 8x or PCI-E x16. I dont know if any cards (non-graphic cards) are available yet made for the x1 slot.

For adding 2 graphic cards, your motherboard must support a feature called "SLi" [Scalable Link interface] and you will have 2 PCI x16 slots in those special motherboard series.

If you're upgrading, better try for a minimal Core2Duo system, cause that's a lot better than any other processor and is the latest by Intel. It beats AMD by a comfortable margin too!

[caleb]

Hi QwertyManiac,

Thanks for your extremely helpful explanation...it was very clear to understand.

[dOm1naTOr]

I think AMD dual cores will be lot better than Intel's 8XX series. Go for AMD ATHLON X2 3800+[8k] along with ASUS A8NE mobo[5.5k]. It features:
* nforce 4 ultra chipsets with lots of overclocking options.
* 1*16x PCIE slot for Graphics.
* 2*1x PCIE for network, sound etc cards.
* 1*4x PCIE for Physics nd sound etc.
* 3*PCI slots.
U can use your old HDD PATA and u can also run your old DDR 2x 512 in dual channel in this motherboard. The board is rock solid.And the 3800+ is better than a 3.2 Ghz Intel 8XX dual core nd overclocking it is a piece of cake.
As gor Graphics card u can either go for:
7600GS 256 DDR2 for 7.5k
7600GT DDR3 for 11k.
The GT varient is much better than GS and is surelly worth it. But even the 7600GS is better than a 6600GT 256, and the 7600GT is better than a 6800GT256.

[akshayt]

You won't be able to buy Dx10 soon in such a low budget.

I suggest you extend your budget do and do a much better overhaul
__________
no need to get s939. Get AM2 or Core 2 Duo

[caleb]

Originally Posted by aravind_n20

I think AMD dual cores will be lot better than Intel's 8XX series. Go for AMD ATHLON X2 3800+[8k] along with ASUS A8NE mobo[5.5k]. It features:
* nforce 4 ultra chipsets with lots of overclocking options.
* 1*16x PCIE slot for Graphics.
* 2*1x PCIE for network, sound etc cards.
* 1*4x PCIE for Physics nd sound etc.
* 3*PCI slots.
U can use your old HDD PATA and u can also run your old DDR 2x 512 in dual channel in this motherboard. The board is rock solid.And the 3800+ is better than a 3.2 Ghz Intel 8XX dual core nd overclocking it is a piece of cake.
As gor Graphics card u can either go for:
7600GS 256 DDR2 for 7.5k
7600GT DDR3 for 11k.
The GT varient is much better than GS and is surelly worth it. But even the 7600GS is better than a 6600GT 256, and the 7600GT is better than a 6800GT256.

Thanks Arvind...this processor + mobo sounds like what I'm looking for & definately fits into my budget...asf ar as graphics card goes I think I'll have to stick to 7600GS due to budget constraints... one question though, my RAM is DDR 333mhz (512x2), it is not DDR 2 do you think ASUS A8NE mobo will support it?

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by aravind_n20

7600GT is better than a 6800GT256.

u sure abt that?? the 6800 is the one of THE best cards out there........

[drvarunmehta]

6800 WAS one of the best cards out there, but obviously 3 year old technology can't compete with the latest card out there.
Whenever nVidia releases it even the slowest card in the Geforce 8 series will compete with the 6800. That's just how fast things get outdated.

[QwertyManiac]

Well, I guess so too, the 7600GT will be better than the 6800GT, but maybe not 6800U

http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=110162
__________
and this
http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html

[dOm1naTOr]

@caleb
Yes defenitely. I own the very same mobo. If u run dat in dual channel, u get effective speed of 667mhz[actually its 333.5]. But both of the stick should be identical.

[caleb]

Gentlemen, I think I'll be sticking to the config given by aravind...as I'll be able to save on memory & HDD.

So here is my SEMI-final decision:
AMD ATHLON X2 3800 (approx Rs.8000)
ASUS A8NE (approx Rs.5500)
Forca 7600GS (Rs.6500)

I'll be using my following old:
120gb + 40gb IDE ATA HDD(s)
1gb DDR 333mhz memory (512x2)
300W power supply-will that be sufficient
Pinnacle 50i TV Tuner
LG Dual layer DVD writer
17' CRT monitor

I think that'll just about fit in my Rs.20000 budget, when I can allocate more money in future I'll updgarde to DDR2 ram & SATA HDD.

..but before I go shopping at Lamington road, mumbai could ALL of you PLEASE have a look at my post "Intel is cuts 9500 jobs is that good news for me" in "NEWS">"TECHNOLOGY NEWS" in this forum and possibly reply...based on your facts, suggestions, arguments & views I'll make my FINAL decision.

Thanks in advance

[Stalker]

@caleb
well, i think its a gud buy 4 that budget.
r u sure u don't want to wait 4 Dx10 cards?? i'm still hanging on to my 3 yr old
1.6 Ghz p4, 256 SDRAM, 128 mb FX5200...........will upgrade after vista is out.

[dOm1naTOr]

Originally Posted by caleb

I think that'll just about fit in my Rs.20000 budget, when I can allocate more money in future I'll updgarde to DDR2 ram & SATA HDD.

Unfortunately, you can't use DDR2 in that mobo. Currently AMD supports DDR2 in AM2 platforms only. But even a DDR333 in dual channel could do a nice job. AMD is always better than Intel platforms in Memory bussiness and a good DDR400 at gud latency can easily beat an Intel with DDR667. So I recomment dun go for DDR2 nd all. Just exchange the old mem with 2x1GB good DDR mem with gud latencies.

Also I would say u also invest for a SATA2 HDD nd is available at very affordable prices now a days like 250GB Sata2 for sub 4k.

[caleb]

Originally Posted by Stalker

@caleb
well, i think its a gud buy 4 that budget.
r u sure u don't want to wait 4 Dx10 cards?? i'm still hanging on to my 3 yr old
1.6 Ghz p4, 256 SDRAM, 128 mb FX5200...........will upgrade after vista is out.

As much as I'd like to wait & upgrade to a DirectX10 card...I somehow feel that they may not be affordable enough for atleast a year after their release, which if I'm not wrong is sometime in 2008 i.e. by the time they are affordable...do you think that they'll be affordable enough i.e. sub Rs.8000 in the first half of 2007 itself?...what does everyone feel about the time frame for a affordable DirectX10 card?

[dOm1naTOr]

If the budget by that time is also sub 8k then u could buy only the 8 series entry level card. maybe somethin like 8200 or 8300[if nvidia follows usual naming prctice] which could just manage to play those games at some 800*600 or 1024*768 @med or low quality. But then theres again a good point that GF7 cards bould be much cheaper that days like some 7900GS for sub 10k maybe.
The GF8 cards may ship with DDR4 mems with over 2Ghz mem, so DDR3 will be cheaper.

[Stalker]

@caleb
if u wait 4 DX 10 cards, by the time they are released,u may be able to increase ur budget & get a decent DX 10 card
Also like aravind_n20 said, by that time, the GF 7 prices will drop

[akshayt]

1)Only you can answer that. Had I had that configuration, I would have upgraded long back.

2)Definitely not. I wouldn't buy D805 personally unless I had an extremely small budget, then I might have. But I would never go from 1gb to 512mb RAM.

3)I wouldn't recommend you to use any of your current hardware maybe except your HDDs especially if they are SATA and perform fully well, and your pinnacle as well. However I recommend you to change your HDDs as well as it will barely take around Rs.1500 - 2000 only.

4)After selling your current PC parts, you should have 30k+ to build your PC. In this budget you can't get a gaming PC but I will try to come as close as possible.

5)Don't wait for Dx10 unless you will upgrade only after another 2.5-3yrs or more after this.

6)Please don't get confused if somebody refers to a card as Geforce 4 series. Geforce 4 MX 440 and all were mainstream while Ti was highend. You just can't compare, it is like comparing a 4k card with a 25k card!

7)For latest games of today, anything less than a geforce 6600 is practically crap in games like GRAW and Oblivion, this too for low settings. A geforce 6200 is the bare bare minimum if you want to play the most intensive of todays games at lowest possible settings.

8)Don't expect geforce 7 to do miracales, within another 6-9 months you will find the geforce 7600GT playing some games at 800*600 low to med for best performance. Anything below a 7600GT isn't that good in the geforce 7 series, geforce 7600GS is only a little better than the 6600GT which is a very very weak card now. The only card that comes after the 7600GT is 7300GT GDDR3 which you may not even find in India.

9)The closest performer to 6800GT from geforce 7 series is geforce 7600GT which is definetely better. If a card which was high end in 2004 mid has now come down to a level when it can't play games at max settings even at 10X7, what to talk of current mainstream and low end cards. 6800GT will end up playing games like GRAW at 10X7 Med at the very most, and maybe a little better for oblivion.

10)No onboard video can play the most intensive games at medium settings and I doubt whether it would do well even for low to med. Please mention the games and FPS and rest of the hardware as well.

11)Core 2 Duo is not in your budget if you want to game.

12)All newer cards are not going to be better than older ones. Usually the upper mainstream of the newer gen replaces the king of the previous gen normally and the low end of the newer ones replace the previous lower mainstreams. However keep in mind that initially low end card may be as expensive as 7-8k or more. Geforce 6800 > 7300GS and all that crap and it should compete a 7600GS and may beat it once unlocked. At stock 6600GT should at the moment usually come close.


Now let us design your PC. First let us decide the components which will be constant throughout and can't change.

HDD: Seagate SATA II NCQ 160GB - Rs.3000

Cabinet: Generic ATX cabinet with enough room and ventilation - Rs.1000 +-

PSU: Cooler Master 430 watts - Rs.2000 hopefully
Total - Rs.6000 approx

I expect that you are retaining all DVD RW, Combo and even FDD drives.


Now, all other components are not fixed except the GPU if you plan to do mainly gaming.

Case 1
AMD 64 3200 Venice s939 - Rs.4000+
Foxconn nforce 4 without onboard video, hopefully you might do 2.3GHz, but check the reviews first - Rs.2000+
2 X 512MB DDR 400 Transcend - Rs.4500+
Total - Rs.11000 approx

So, you have about Rs.17000 for all your components except your GPU. This means about Rs.13000 for the GPU. Now you can either, spend about another 1-2k to get 7900GS or you can get X1800GTO and spend the remaining 1-2k else where.
OR
You can get a 7600GT and in the rest 3k get Asus A8N E instead of the Foxconn by adding another Rs.500.

Case 2
AMD 64 3200 AM2 - Rs.4000+
Asus M2N E, please check its overclockability, and compatibilty, stability etc, also keep in mind it has issues so get them checked first. - Rs.5500
2 X 512MB DDR2 667 Transcend/Corsair Value(if supported, please check mobo-RAM compatibility for any system before buying) - Rs.4000-4500
GPU: 7600GT - Rs.10000 +-

Case 3
Intel Core 2 Duo - E6300/6400 (9k/10.5k)
965 based motherboard in the range of 6-8k which are overclockable and good, check among Gigabyte, MSI and Asus preferably. Consider 965 DS3 Gigabyte and MSI Neo F 965(FSB limit at 333)
RAM - same as suggested above
GPU - Geforce 7600GT, this won't be as good a system at the moment for gaming, however it will be much better for general purposes and will be more future proof and you can upgrade your GPU few months down the line as prices decrease.

Case 4
Replace the AMD 64 3200 with X2 3600(256kb X 2 L2 cache) - 7k or X2 3800 (512 X 2 L2 cache) - 8.5k