Legality of Mac OS X TOS

[kumarmohit]

Guyz

I was going through the Indian Copyright Act and Indian Contracts Act. Look what I found.

Contrary to what you think, there is no crime in installing OS X on a PC if you strip it from a Mac you purchased. It is a breach of contract, a civil wrong, a wrong against a single entity as opposed to a crime which a wrong against the state.

I assume that you know the difference between the breach of contract and a crime.

When you strip OS X off a Mac and install it on a PC it is a breach of EULA, which is a contract.

It is not piracy as piracy is when you pay for one copy and install more than one copies or when you install it without paying for it. Since you wiped the copy from first place, and you paid for one copy only, you are in the realm of law even if you install it on non Apple hardware.

There is no provision in Indian copyrights Act which restricts how you use your copy. Take it like this. You purchase a CD from Sony music. They can not claim that if you play the CD in a player by Philips and not by Sony, it would be a breach of copyright. Contrary to what most people think, Indian laws do allow you to use the thing of which you get a license in the way you want.

There is difference between breach of EULA and piracy. Installing OSX on a PC after you have wiped it off from a Mac you purchased is a breach of EULA not Piracy.

Please remember that in India we are governed by Indian Contract Act and Indian Copyrights Act. Breach of contract is NOT a Crime in India.

In case you run OSX on a PC It would be covered under the Indian Contract Act. It is a civil wrong, a breach of contract, not a crime so technically it is not illegal.

The maximum Jobs can do is ask you for compensation. He can not get you tried for a crime. The term illegal means something which is contrary to the law. Breach of contract is not a crime. It is civil wrong. Since the law does allow you to use your copy the way you want, Apple can not regulate where you use your copy of OSX, provided that you are ready to pay the damages (Not fine - fine is paid to state not to the offended party. Damages are paid to the offended party in a civil case.) of loss. These damages can in no case be more than the price you paid for the said Mac.

Here text of the laws I base this argument upon.

http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/ind...ntractact.html
http://www.ircc.iitb.ac.in/webnew/In...ct%201957.html

Please do not consider this the official word. I am still discussing the matter with my teachers at Campus Law center, University of Delhi. I would post the final part as soon as we reach to a definite legal conclusion.

Update 1: If you install OSX without purchasing a Mac, It is definitely a crime. The condition I discussed above assumes that you purchase a Mac and wipe OSX off that machine.


[Mod Edit: drgrudge]
Members need not get carried away by what was been debated. Just a reminder on our forum policies. So even if it's 'legal' according to Indian laws, we won't permit discussing/supporting the same. Hell, we don't even allow discussion on torrent sites/trackers and related news.

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install (like iMav) will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

[ray|raven]

^Wow,how much work did you do for this post dude?
IMHO, this deserves a seperate thread,Quite a few folks on the forums would love to read this!.
Make another thread dude.

Again, Wonderful work on the post.

[kumarmohit]

I would make another thread when I am fully assured by my teachers.

[drgrudge]

Disclaimer: I didn't read what was posted.


To hell with the Indian IT laws. You don't own this forum. If you want to be part of the community, you need to abide by the god damn rules we set here.

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install (like iMav) will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

Hope I'm clear on what I wanted to communicate.

[preshit.net]

Although I appreciate your efforts put into the research, I do not understand the point being made here.

According to you, it is not a crime if one purchases a Mac and wipe off the OS and installs it on a non-Apple hardware. But, why in the world would anyone install the OS on non-Apple hardware when he's actually paying for the excellent hardware that comes with it.

Almost everyone who buys the Mac, uses it as it is. There are many reasons that go into his decision of buying the Mac, great hardware design being one of them. I don't understand why would anyone strip off the OS in the first place.

[goobimama]

Originally Posted by rayraven

^Ok, temme this dude,
Are all the folks who install windows without buying it, commiting a crime?

Obviously!

[kumarmohit]

Hey! calm down grudgy. I am not saying that you should install it. I am discussing a legal scenario!

What is the topic of discussion here is the legality of OSX installation on non Apple hardware according to laws of India. We are not discussing how you do it.

I think that when someone posts actual steps to do it, I would be the first one to report it. Surely discussing if something is legal or not is not against the rules.

I am trying to analyze if the word illegal is the correct word in the case you used it.

for example

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal.

What I am saying here is that use of term illegal is incorrect. Instead of saying that it is illegal, you have to say that it is a breach of the Apple EULA.


Please do read what I posted.

@ Dark Lord

I see no point in ripping and installing it either. I hope you get wt I said now.

[drgrudge]

kumarmohit / others -
Members need not get carried away by what was been debated. Just a reminder on our forum policies. So even if it's 'legal' according to Indian laws, we won't permit discussing/supporting the same. Hell, we don't even allow discussion on torrent sites/trackers and related news.

Sure you can debate abt the legalities, otherwise I would've deleted/edited your posts.

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

Theoretically If Apple stops us from using its software on non Apple hardware, it can also say that you cannot use non Apple software on Apple hardware.

You've interpreted it wrong. Apple says don't use my software (OS X) in non Apple Hardware. There's no restriction on the hardware. Say if Microsoft had restricted the use of Windows on Apple Hardware, then installing would be illegal. But there's no such restrictions. If you buy a Mac, you can run OS X, Windows and *nix.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

What I am saying here is that use of term illegal is incorrect. Instead of saying that it is illegal, you have to say that it is a breach of the Apple EULA.

And the apple EULA is yet to be challenged in an Indian court, as far as I can remember.
So no verdict on legality or illegality can be given right here.

@grudge: chill out man... I too didn't read what was posted, btw

Update: I just went through raaabo's siggy:
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/portables-peripherals-electronics/announcements.html

after combing the article in detail, I conclude that what grudge says is neither true nor false. Issues like this are not delt with there, and the admins need to rewrite or make a revision of that post to let us know what they want us to do in situations like these.
(chaddi shopping can wait)

[kumarmohit]

^^ Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.

You've interpreted it wrong. Apple says don't use my software (OS X) in non Apple Hardware. There's no restriction on the hardware. Say if Microsoft had restricted the use of Windows on Apple Hardware, then installing would be illegal. But there's no such restrictions. If you buy a Mac, you can run OS X, Windows and *nix.

@ grudge, I am not saying that Apple restricts you now, I am saying what if it does so in the future. What if Apple takes the dominant position in 10 years and then starts restricting it. (Considering the potential of the company, the performance of Apple and of Vista, I think that in ten years Apple be in a mood and market position to do so)

Similarly would it be a breach if I buy an X serve and install OS X from a Mac Pro on it and install the OS X server on the Mac Pro. I am on Apple hardware, yet the hardware is not the one i purchased it with.

Raaabo's rules restrict talking about something that is illegal. What we are trying to ascertain in this debate is if it is illegal in the first place.

I have already told that this scenario assumes that you purchased Mac and are therefore having a license to use OS X. In simpler terms, it is like I purchase a car by Maruti and Maruti gave me petrol of Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited. Can Maruti stop me if I take out the petrol from the car and put in the scooter instead!

I didnot exactly purchase the petrol it came included with the car. Just like OS X comes with the Mac. You do not exactly purchase OS X

[ray|raven]

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

@ grudge, I am not saying that Apple restricts you now, I am saying what if it does so in the future.

I'd love to see how many users would be left if apple says only apps made by apple can be used on Macs.

@grudge
How abt shiftin this into another thread?

[MetalheadGautham]

@kumarmohit: you got it all wrong buddy...

I just said that the issue is yet to be challenged before law.
There is no reason why it can't be held illegal.

We just need to see how the First Apple Inc. vs Hackintosh User(who has bought a legal copy of OSX) goes. Because only piracy is defined in the various cases we have seen so far. Not licences that restrict the usage of "digital commodity".

Till then, we are at Raaabo and FatBeing's discreation.

Originally Posted by rayraven

I'd love to see how many users would be left if apple says only apps made by apple can be used on Macs.

@grudge
How abt shiftin this into another thread?

nah... it looks realistic in this thread.
this discussion is more related to apple inc than all those questions on how to use xyz or where abc can be bought. Its a legal issue that attracts many heads.

[kumarmohit]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

@kumarmohit: you got it all wrong buddy...

I just said that the issue is yet to be challenged before law.
There is no reason why it can't be held illegal.

I hate to reexplain so excuse the copy paste:

Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

Till then, we are at Raaabo and FatBeing's discreation.


.

I guess that would be a great idea.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

I hate to reexplain so excuse the copy paste:

Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.

you didn't read my next few lines did you ?
even I stated that only piracy is defined as Illegal by Indian Law.
such restriction of usage is not.
How many offices in India use avast home edition ? Quite a few do.
Have they ever been sued ?

[narangz]

Offtopic:
^^ In shameful misery? Did you yourself write that?

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

I didnot exactly purchase the petrol it came included with the car. Just like OS X comes with the Mac. You do not exactly purchase OS X

you do purchase OSX. If you are switching from Tiger to Leopard that is.

Originally Posted by narangz

Offtopic:
^^ In shameful misery? Did you yourself write that?

there is a reason for it.
I am ashamed and miserable because...
Personal Reasons I don't want to reveal.

[narangz]

Errrr... No idea about Mac but we do purchase Windows license along with laptops/desktops. We pay for the license which is included in the computer price.

@MHG- Ok buddy.

[kumarmohit]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

you didn't read my next few lines did you ?
even I stated that only piracy is defined as Illegal by Indian Law.
such restriction of usage is not.
How many offices in India use avast home edition ? Quite a few do.
Have they ever been sued ?

What I am saying is that since the restriction is not defined by law, the basic principles of law say that we are allowed to do it. Law defines what is wrong, everything it does not say is wrong is inherently not legally wrong.

[aryayush]

Thanks for that! I'm sure it will be helpful to someone.

@kumarmohit,
I tend to agree with you. However, I have a few points here:
1. Like Preshit said, no one would ever want to uninstall Mac OS X from their Mac and install in on their PC. It just makes no sense;
2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;
3. Violation of the EULA is also a serious matter. Sure, it's not a crime, but it isn't the right thing to do either; and
4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.

[yash]

damn! why does all the awesome discussion happen when I'm sleeping?!!!
well anyways, I'm glad to know I can install my favourite OS on any system I use.

[ring_wraith]

Originally Posted by aryayush

4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.

+1 on all of that. I actually feel that the whole reason Apple offers such great products is because of how tightly the Hardware and Software tie up.

Anyways, coming back to the discussion at hand, in theory, as I've read on the site that started the whole Mac on PC movement, it is legal to install OSX on a PC by only 2 methods:

1) Buy a Mac, Wipe OSX off, and Install it wherever you may wish. This, as mentioned, is quite pointless. This method is also highly questionable.
2) Become an Apple Dev. One solid definite way to install OSX legally on a PC.

[kumarmohit]

@ aryaayush and ring_wraith

While i totally agree that there is not a great reason would anyone want to do it, we are debating what if someone actually does it.There are a number of people doing it and in India too. Where do they stand is what I am trying to decide and should people actually use the phrase Installing OS X on non apple hardware is illegal. I have high objection to usage of term illegal.

2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;

Buy a Mac, Wipe OSX off, and Install it wherever you may wish. This, as mentioned, is quite pointless. This method is also highly questionable.

And this is what my point is. As of now according to Indian law, it is in harmony with the law. When you break an agreement, you do not commit a crime, breach of contracts happens all the time. Consider the avast Home edition example.

And I just checked that Black Macbook is 68000 + taxes in Delhi. Comparing to the Dubai prices, does it become cheaper there?

damn! why does all the awesome discussion happen when I'm sleeping?!!!

Since we are in India and this is day time here, not the time to be asleep

well anyways, I'm glad to know I can install my favourite OS on any system I use.

Dont bother, it is still a crime unless you wipe it off the original Mac

[ring_wraith]

@kumarmohit I see what you mean, but you are on shaky grounds there.

[kumarmohit]

that is why i am trying to confirm it with teachers at my ex law college

[aryayush]

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

There are a number of people doing it and in India too. Where do they stand is what I am trying to decide

You do realise that the vast majority of these people you're referring to do not own Macs. And the few that are doing it even though they own a Mac do not wipe OS X off their Mac. So, IMHO, every single person doing it without Apple's official approval is doing it illegally. As you can see, this is in accordance with your theory too.

Originally Posted by jamesbond007

1) How to play subtitles with .mkv files ?? ( VLC or QT )

If the subtitles are embedded, they'll play all by themselves. If they're not, you'll have to place the subtitle file in the same folder as the movie, make sure both files have exactly the same name and then launch the MKV file. Both QuickTime and VLC will automatically use the subtitle file. In VLC, you can also hit ⌘⇧O, enable "Load subtitles file:", hit 'Settings...' and select any subtitle file on your Mac and use it with any movie. No need to place them in the same folder and make sure they have the same name. I prefer QuickTime Player.

Originally Posted by kumarmohit

The AIR with SSD is not available in India at all.

You place an order for it. It will take some time but you can buy it in India. You'll have to sell your house, of course.

[MetalheadGautham]

Originally Posted by aryayush

I tend to agree with you. However, I have a few points here:
1. Like Preshit said, no one would ever want to uninstall Mac OS X from their Mac and install in on their PC. It just makes no sense;
2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;
3. Violation of the EULA is also a serious matter. Sure, it's not a crime, but it isn't the right thing to do either; and
4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.

1. Completely agree with you there.

2. You needn't. A Mac IS a PC. As long as I have the same configuration, there will be no problem.

3. Agreed again.

4. Again, a Mac IS a PC. If I buy a PC of the same configuration, there won't be any cooperation related problems between the PC and the OS. And the perpose of using Mac OSX may be ease of use to you, but most of us want it only for software like iLife.


And the breach of EULA issue has certain differences from the Avast Home Edition Case here:

Avast home is free of cost. They are giving you something for free, so you definitely need to use it only in the place(home) they want you to in the EULA. And they are not restricting the usage in any way. Indian laws too have commercial vs non commercial distinction. You can't use a home LPG cylinder in your hotel.

Apple case on the other hand is an entirely different case. Here, they are trying to force a monopolistic rule onto you. They want you to use their software ONLY on their hardware. So this particular case might be intresting to see if it reaches the court. Ofcource, newspapers and the common janatha will be too dumb to understand the heart of the issue, but it shouldn't be a problem in the Supreme Court.

Lets take medicine patents in India. The various life saving drugs have huge royalities assosiated with them, but the Govt of India allows their imitations to be sold cheap in India. The constitution is basically Anti-Monopolistic.

[aryayush]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

2. You needn't. A Mac IS a PC. As long as I have the same configuration, there will be no problem.

...

4. Again, a Mac IS a PC. If I buy a PC of the same configuration, there won't be any cooperation related problems between the PC and the OS. And the perpose of using Mac OSX may be ease of use to you, but most of us want it only for software like iLife.

You obviously speak without any experience at all in this area. I'm glad that you don't have any experience about this thing but certainly not that you still chose to refuse my statements, based on whims and opinions.

You cannot install Mac OS X on a PC using any of Apple's own disks. There is absolutely no way to do it. There are ways to install it on a PC, of course, but I won't even hint on how you do it here. Rest assured though that it does not involve the original Mac OS X install disk in any way.

As for not having issues with similarly configured PCs, you're wrong (again). Go to any of the hackint0sh related forums and you'll see how many problems people have and how people with similar problems and similar configurations cannot solve them with similar solutions. There are no tried and tested ways and the number of unsuccessful users who give up after a lot of effort is far higher than the number of people who become successful.

It's not only not easy, it's darn difficult. Even on almost exactly the same hardware, because no matter how similar the hardware, you can ever have the same motherboard.

iMav (or maybe it was gx_saurav) admitted in public once that he'd had to reinstall OS X seven times before he was successful. And even after that, he used to report strange issues that none of us actual Mac users have ever faced or even heard of. Of course, they blamed it all on the OS but we know the real cause of those issues.

That's why I asked you to ask ring_wraith, and he has even affirmed it for us on the previous page. He wanted to try Mac OS X before going out and buying an actual Mac. I told him not to, but he had his reasons to do it. I told him about the things that could, and would, go wrong and how it just won't be the Mac experience. He tried it anyway and he replied later that I was right. He's, of course, an amicable fellow so he was quick to admit it when he was wrong.

So ask him and you'll know.

Installing Mac OS X on a PC is no child's play. And it's the truth that even after you're successful (if you are), it's not even remotely the same as a Mac. And if it isn't, there's no point in it. Because a Mac is all about easy of use and rock solid integration and stability. You don't want it, don't buy a Mac or use Mac OS X. There are iLife replacements on Windows that do the same things. Sure, they do it in a half-assed way and are complicated, but then if you're the sort of person who uses a hackint0sh, you thrive on that sort of crap anyway.

Installing Mac OS X on a PC is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Because the exceptional circumstances that kumarmohit mentioned are just not practical. I can understand a Mac user wanting to install OS X on his PC too (which is, of course, illegal), but no Mac user would ever uninstall the OS from his Mac, obtain it through questionable means (because, come Hell or high water, the original disk won't do) and then try to install it on his PC. Who'd be an idiot enough to try that!


As for Apple's restricting Mac OS X from PCs being monopolistic or whatever, that's just sour grapes. Do you ***** when game developers restrict games from running on low-end machines? They know their software best and they don't think running it on those PCs will give you a satisfying experience. It's their decision to make. Who're you to question it? Do you complain when Sony Ericsson does not allow you to install their OS on other phones? Or when Hyundai wouldn't allow you install their engine into another car? Do you say, "I bought the parts. It's my wish what I do with them."

Please talk some sense. If you can't/won't buy a Mac, that's your problem. Why blame the company for their business practices, which are perfectly ethical, not any different from the norm and are in the best interests of their paying customers? I know Mac OS X is so darned awesome because it only has to run on a handful of configurations and I love that fact. I don't want Apple to screw up that arrangement. Who're you to object to it when the customers are loyally and happily buying those products, knowing their limitations, and are satisfied with them (and much more so than customers of other companies)?

Think about it.

[MetalheadGautham]

^^I just discussed legal issues there.

regarding the customer satisfaction point, I have no comments. Your comments sound inspirational to the ears of an Apple Fan, and hypocritic to the ears of a sceptic. So I don't want to comment there.

As for installing mac OS on a PC, I have read suffitient hackintosh websites.
I just said no external hack is needed to install mac OS on a properly configured PC.
Google for Hackintosh if you want to know what I mean.

Lets forget hackintosh and go to the legal part.

What we are discussing is if it can be illegal under Indian Law to legally buy a copy of Apple Inc's Macintosh OSX Leopard and install it on a Computer thats not manufactured by Apple.

Constitutional and Legal clauses are welcome to be shared here to validate points.

Installing Mac OS X on a PC is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Because the exceptional circumstances that kumarmohit mentioned are just not practical. I can understand a Mac user wanting to install OS X on his PC too (which is, of course, illegal), but no Mac user would ever uninstall the OS from his Mac, obtain it through questionable means (because, come Hell or high water, the original disk won't do) and then try to install it on his PC. Who'd be an idiot enough to try that!

an intresting situation he had described. What if I buy a cheap old second hand macmini and a high end Custom built Computer and removed mac osx from the former and installed it in the later ?

[aryayush]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

I just said no external hack is needed to install mac OS on a properly configured PC.

You mean to say that it is possible to install the install disk that came with my Mac into a "properly configured PC" and have OS X up and running in twenty minutes, just as if it were a Mac?

If that answer to that question is in the affirmative, then you're either mistaken or lying.

[MetalheadGautham]

one more small fact: the original apple os disc may not be usable to install mac on a pc after removing it from apple hardware, I agree, but making (modded)copies is definitely not illegal. If that was the case, nLite guys might have got sued long back by M$. Making a personal backup of a software disc is perfectly legal in most countries(especially India)