Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?

[Krazy_About_Technology]

Guys,

This time i am really annoyed with Microsoft for this Intel 915 Graphics and Aero glass incompatibility issues. I know many post have been done on this forum on this issue, but i cant keep myself from speaking.
Its well known, Aero Glass interface is not supported on Intel 915 based systems. I accepted this fact for a while after saerching real hard on net for a WDDM driver and not finding any.

But all changed today when i booted up Linux Mint with Beryl. Its awesome man! The effects are smoothly working with transparencies (May be software based, but working properly), window wobble effect, 3d task switcher etc.
I cant understand if these things work so smoothly on linux, is the Windows Vista graphics system so badly designed that it cant run simple transparencies and a few Pixel Shader 2.0 instructions on it! I dont think so, but its showing that!

I read the post of intel regarding this issue, and i understand why they cant release an WDDM driver. The real fault lies in the changed specification given by Microsoft for the WDDM driver model. The absesnce of a hardware scheduler in the chip doesn't stops it from running smoothly, nor does the newly specified size of memory tables. Vista beta versions did had LDDM drivers (WDDM now) and ran Aero glass on 915. I cant understand why they raised the requirements if the systems run properly with 1 GB RAM?

BTW i am using vista on 1.6 GHZ celeron, 1.24 GB RAM and a 915 card. Aero used to work perfectly upto 2nd BETA (i doent remember it well) of Vista. But this topped with RC1. IT really knocks me off!!

If linux can do it, why not Windows, which is also such a advance and great operating system. This is somewhat ridiculous for me (and frustrating too).

[The_Devil_Himself]

If linux can do it, why not Windows, which is also such a advance and great operating system.

How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)
Tumhe saza milegi.(no aero effect for you).

Yea man Beryl on Linux mint really rocks!!The effects are amazingly smooth without any lag and looks damn cool(minty).Looks like Linux pwned vista in this department too.


Offtopic:I have intel 946ghiz mobo having gma3000 onboard graphics(128mb dedicated memory).Is my system 'strong' enough to run Aero effect?

[Krazy_About_Technology]

Originally Posted by The_Devil_Himself

How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)
Tumhe saza milegi.(no aero effect for you).

Yea man Beryl on Linux mint really rocks!!The effects are amazingly smooth without any lag and looks damn cool(minty).Looks like Linux pwned vista in this department too.


Offtopic:I have intel 946ghiz mobo having gma3000 onboard graphics(128mb dedicated memory).Is my system 'strong' enough to run Aero effect?

You're getting me wrong dude. I am not comparing vista with linux as an OS. i am just comparing the graphics cores of these two. I am a fairly advance user of both these OSs and use them personally as well as professionally. What i dont understand is Windows Vista's graphics subsystem is quiet comparable to Linux X Windows subsystem in terms of performance in 2D/3D graphics applications. Then how come Microsoft did this unjustice? If the system ran AERO glass in BETA versions, why were the hardware requirements raised? I think this is the problem because of which Intel is unable to release WDDM drivers for it, coz what Microsoft has termed as specification for it is simply not possible with this hardware.

Originally Posted by The_Devil_Himself

Offtopic:I have intel 946ghiz mobo having gma3000 onboard graphics(128mb dedicated memory).Is my system 'strong' enough to run Aero effect?

I didn't got you. Are you saying that you have a 946 chipset pased notebook with onboard graphics? In that case, Yes, your system can run Aero if you have more than 512 MB of RAM. You can download the WDDM driver from intel's site since Aero is supported on chipsets starting from 945 onwards

[hellknight]

Originally Posted by Krazy_About_Technology

Guys,

This time i am really annoyed with Microsoft for this Intel 915 Graphics and Aero glass incompatibility issues. I know many post have been done on this forum on this issue, but i cant keep myself from speaking.
Its well known, Aero Glass interface is not supported on Intel 915 based systems. I accepted this fact for a while after saerching real hard on net for a WDDM driver and not finding any.

But all changed today when i booted up Linux Mint with Beryl. Its awesome man! The effects are smoothly working with transparencies (May be software based, but working properly), window wobble effect, 3d task switcher etc.
I cant understand if these things work so smoothly on linux, is the Windows Vista graphics system so badly designed that it cant run simple transparencies and a few Pixel Shader 2.0 instructions on it! I dont think so, but its showing that!

I read the post of intel regarding this issue, and i understand why they cant release an WDDM driver. The real fault lies in the changed specification given by Microsoft for the WDDM driver model. The absesnce of a hardware scheduler in the chip doesn't stops it from running smoothly, nor does the newly specified size of memory tables. Vista beta versions did had LDDM drivers (WDDM now) and ran Aero glass on 915. I cant understand why they raised the requirements if the systems run properly with 1 GB RAM?

BTW i am using vista on 1.6 GHZ celeron, 1.24 GB RAM and a 915 card. Aero used to work perfectly upto 2nd BETA (i doent remember it well) of Vista. But this topped with RC1. IT really knocks me off!!

If linux can do it, why not Windows, which is also such a advance and great operating system. This is somewhat ridiculous for me (and frustrating too).

He He dude!

Why don't you completely dump Vista and go for Linux. Every thing that is present in Vista was present in Linux ages ago, whether be it Parental Controls, automatic backups etc. Actually XP is much better than Vista, it only lags in the looks department, instead of launching Vista if they could have launched a theme pack etc, then it would have been much better. Vista is really a resource hog. Vista Sucks Dude

[Krazy_About_Technology]

Yaar i wont say that. Not respecting somebody's hardwork only because they charge for it is not right. No offences, i am just expressing my views. Vista seems like a resuorce hog but it puts the resources to very good use. If you are talking about the less amount of free RAM, i must tell you that dont go on numbers. Yes, Vista uses up most of the memory given to it but this memory is always available on demand in an instance whenever required. What it does is that it caches programs frequently used by you in memory and starts them up faster next time. BUT these memory locations are never flushed into virtual memory. INstead whenever a program requires more memory, Vista frees it up by removing less frequently used programs at the speed of light. Ya it requires you to have 1 GB of memory to run peacefully, and thats a hard fact.

But i dont agree that because of this one should not study and learn day to day usage, administration and development of a platform that 95% of the world uses. You are saying that i should abondon using .NET technologies that provide me living? True, mono project implements .NET on linux but its partial for .NET 2.0 and 3.0 doesn't even exists! Sorry dude i cant. I really appreciate linux for what it is, but in the same way i do it for Windows. I dont find it right to do such kind of comparisions.

One more thing, i have not posted here for comparisions between two OSs. I just wanted to share what i feel for this issue and my comments on what companies are saying. Pleae dont go off topic.

[bikdel]

^^^Gr8 thinking yea even i was annoyed... one of my systems use the GMA 900 which in hardware "completely suports VISTA".. only right drivers arent available...

[MetalheadGautham]

talking about hard work, what's the hard work in implementing features already existing in other OSes like BSD, Linux, Mac, etc snd taking a lot of time to do that? CPU Meter and RAM Meter along with widgets appeared in linux first looooong back. Calanders too. There is nothing innovative in "Gadgets" or "security" or "memory management". The only thngs new are shadow copy, and aero. shadow coppy is a feature that is as easy as the easiest thing in the world to implement in an OS. we can even go one step further and make a shadow partition. Aero is just a theme. I think if you see the developement cycles in Beryl and Compiz Fusion, people develope cool looking in a matter of weeks if not hours.

If I were you, I would try to ditch or re-sell vista, or keep it till service pack 1 arrives, see if things get better, if not, wait again, and In the meanwhile use XP for gaming and Linux for other work.(hey thats what I do, ecept for the fact that I don't even have vista)

[Hitboxx]

Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?

Go ask Microsoft who's OS run the world's 95% idiotic bureaucracy.

[gxsaurav]

Go ask intel why they are not making Vista RTM compatible drivers for Intel 915 chipset & not Microsoft.

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by Intel

Q5: Why doesn’t the Intel 915 Express chipset family support Windows Vista Aero?

A5: The overall graphics architecture and design of the 915 Express chipset family (with Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 900 graphics engine) was finalized prior to Microsoft releasing details and specifications around the Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) driver. Given this, there are hardware limitations in the 915 Express chipset architecture that would limit graphics performance and memory capabilities when attempting to run WDDM on Vista.

The hardware limitations of 915/GMA900 graphics center around not having a large enough memory table to support Vista Aero, a key feature that is part of WDDM driver support. This, along with hardware restrictions on surface placement and graphics memory alignment, results in graphics memory usage that is not optimized for Aero performance. Additionally, the lack of native hardware support in the 915 Express chipset family for Vista’s dynamic memory management would result in slower graphics performance and a sub-optimal user experience with Windows Vista Aero.

With these identified limitations, the 915/GMA900-based graphics system would not have met the performance requirements for Aero desktop composition support under Vista. This ultimately led to the decision to begin WDDM support with the Intel 945 Express chipset products, as Intel addressed these hardware limitations with the desktop and mobile Intel 945 Express chipset families.

To provide the best performance and user experience with Windows Vista on Intel 915/GMA900 platforms, Intel will support Windows Vista on 915/GMA900 with the drivers based on the XP driver model

Apparently, Aero requirements are higher than what GMA900 can deliver smoothly.

[Help~Is~Here]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Go ask intel why they are not making Vista RTM compatible drivers for Intel 915 chipset & not Microsoft.

Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!

I hope all the hardware manufacturers are going to bring in the support crunch which is going to kill Vista atleast for the sake of something better.

Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!

[infra_red_dude]

Originally Posted by Help~Is~Here

Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!

Vista surely is NOT as bad as you make it appear! There are many changes, most of them are not obvious to the eye. The biggest obvious change you can see: Aero, is no big deal (thanks to alternatives on other OS') Prolly this is the reason why Vista is the most criticized MS OS till date; tho its not a bad product, surely not.

Originally Posted by Help~Is~Here

Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!

This is cent per cent true! When you see Aero alone you gasp at the effects.. and say, Wow! But when you see a lesser previlaged system giving you more eye candy, you tend to laugh at yourself for your previous exclamation: "Wow"!

[iMav]

Originally Posted by Help~Is~Here

Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!

I hope all the hardware manufacturers are going to bring in the support crunch which is going to kill Vista atleast for the sake of something better.

Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!

man if its not arya its always some 1 else with a whackier post

[Help~Is~Here]

Originally Posted by infra_red_dude

This is cent per cent true! When you see Aero alone you gasp at the effects.. and say, Wow! But when you see a lesser previlaged system giving you more eye candy, you tend to laugh at yourself for your previous exclamation: "Wow"!

Well, that is what my first quote also implied. This thread was about the eye candy and support for the same. Nothing more. I didn't say anything about it's other features. It's just that I put it in 2 paragraphs. So, I guess you would rightly appreciate that my first statement is also correct.

@IMav, I really don't have time to argue with you when the things are very clear right in front of your eyes. Now if you still can't see which one is better when you look at it.. WOW, you need to get an eyetest

[iMav]

as iv said before .... linux can do everything that os x can but neither can do what windows can theres no argument abt it .... "its very clear & right in front of ur eye"

[vish786]

Originally Posted by The_Devil_Himself

How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Lunux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)

unbelievable someone said it... .

[Help~Is~Here]

Originally Posted by iMav

as iv said before .... linux can do everything that os x can but neither can do what windows can theres no argument abt it .... "its very clear & right in front of ur eye"

... LMAO... Hahahhahahahahha.. @IMav, don't make a joke out of yourself..

on a second thought.. forget it.. fanboys like you are meant to be ignorant.. lol

This guy thinks Aero is better than Compiz Fusion? ROFL

@Krazy, can you please explain to this guy what you meant by "Beryl on Linux Runs Cool Effects on Intel 915 - What has Microsoft Done to AERO?"

[iMav]

ahead ... devil ur standing at the wrong end

a joke out of myself - wahts that supposed to mean

[gxsaurav]

Hmm...lots of misconception, & I m not feeling sleepy tonight anyway, time to clear things up

Originally Posted by Help~Is~Here

Because intel knows that Vista is the worst OS released in its time considering the company and time spend on it! Even a bunch of 18yr olds could have made a better OS given the same time and resources!

Wow....Do i have to mock u again on your ignorence?

Vista Aero is the biggest joke considering what other OS's can already do with fewer system resources!

Lolz...so, u think the only thing aero is a GPU accelerated UI, same as Beryl...u really have no idea what aero is.

Ofcourse both bring a GPU accelerated UI, but tell me, does beryl support hot plugging of another GPU so that u can simply take out the PCIe graphics card & add a new one or add an external GPU to the system & it will automatically start without rebooting the OS cos only the graphics subsystem restarts?

or dynamic memory allocation for the GPU despite of having 128 or 256 MB of Dedicated GPU RAM so that the GPU can use system RAM as a page file?

or GPU virtualisation due to which a GPU can run multiple threads like running a 3D game in VMWare while also playing another 3D Game in host OS?

or rendering & showing the windows & videos on the screen parallel to the Monitor as a texture in a 3d space?

or Using the GPU as a Math co-processor

or Better & efficient resource management of the code so that more work can be done in less clock cycle reducing power consumption

or dynamic clock cycle adjustment so that the GPU can decrease its Memory & core clock cycle to reduce power consumption & heat

or close the unused parts of GPU like 3d engine etc when it is only running a 2d OS?

Wake up boy, Aero is not just eye candy, it is much more. Beryl is just eye candy, try hot plugging a graphics card in a Linux system running beryl & then tell us all here whether it crashes or not.

The system requirement for aero are not much considering what it does. Beryl requires less system resource & a OpenGL 1.5 class GPU is all u need because it is only a GPU accelerated UI running on top of XServer. Aero is everything on its own, it owns the GPU compleately.

All the effects, transparency u see in Aero can be achieved in Direct 8.1 class hardware too & even in some cases DirectX 7 class, but then the GPU will need to process a lot of code, instead of which making a DX 9 based DWM engine makes sense cos well...the code is slim in this case.

Do u know that the quality of games in DirectX 10 can be achieved in DirectX 9c too, but the problem is that if the GPU does 100 unit of work to render a scene in DX 10, it will need to do 150 unit of work to show the same quality in DirectX 9c.

[Help~Is~Here]

^^ lolz.. you just explained why Aero su**z compared to Beryl/Compiz.

God, when will these Microsoftians understand what an end user really wants? I mean like who the hell is not going to bother to shutdown his computer before replacing a graphics card?
Maybe MS fanboys will saying.. oh wait.. I can remove my pant on my right leg first and then put my new pant in the right leg and then put the new pant on my left leg and pull out the old pant thorough the leg of the new one.. wtf? I would do what just every end user would do, remove my old pant completely and put on the new one!!

We don't care what you can do with your pants.. but whatever you think Aero is... for the average end user.. it's just another eye candy.. and simply fails in front of dynamic UI's like Compiz Fusion. Why am I even arguing with you on this when majority of the world has already realized what I said. Forget it.. don't start your normal flame war here.. cut it out.. Enough of you praising in what all ways you can put on your pant.

As for the beginner of the thread @Krazy, I understand your frustration mate, don't change your hardware to run Aero. Run something like Compiz which will put your hardware to much better use.

[iMav]

Originally Posted by Help~Is~Here

God, when will these Microsoftians understand what an end user really wants?

dont need read further a stupid comment as this just shows who makes a joke out of whom .... the company with the largest market share ... how can some 1 be numero uno for more than a decade and not know what to sell and how to sell help u seriously dont have any idea of what and how business is and how it is run u say ur in some indusry for what 10 yrs .... but dude u hav sh1t idea abt what business is man ....

[The_Devil_Himself]

How dare you compare VIsta with Linux?Linux is maybe a hundred miles ahead of Windows.('personal opinion' please don't start a flame war here)

Why is it unbelievable?Isn't it quite obvious.

@gx-hot swapping of video cards hmmmm......very nice but who is gonna try it out?I mean I wont even touch it when PC is up and running.

Hey gx and iMav-please do check out Compiz-fusion(use gutsy gibbon) and you will see for yourself how smooth it is compared to Aero.

[iMav]

vista is not only aero ....

[The_Devil_Himself]

^^agreed but this thread is dedicated to aero vs. beryl\compiz.

and what other departments do you think Vista is ahead of linux?

[kalpik]

Originally Posted by gx_saurav

Hmm...lots of misconception, & I m not feeling sleepy tonight anyway, time to clear things up



Wow....Do i have to mock u again on your ignorence?



Lolz...so, u think the only thing aero is a GPU accelerated UI, same as Beryl...u really have no idea what aero is.

Ofcourse both bring a GPU accelerated UI, but tell me, does beryl support hot plugging of another GPU so that u can simply take out the PCIe graphics card & add a new one or add an external GPU to the system & it will automatically start without rebooting the OS cos only the graphics subsystem restarts?

or dynamic memory allocation for the GPU despite of having 128 or 256 MB of Dedicated GPU RAM so that the GPU can use system RAM as a page file?

or GPU virtualisation due to which a GPU can run multiple threads like running a 3D game in VMWare while also playing another 3D Game in host OS?

or rendering & showing the windows & videos on the screen parallel to the Monitor as a texture in a 3d space?

or Using the GPU as a Math co-processor

or Better & efficient resource management of the code so that more work can be done in less clock cycle reducing power consumption

or dynamic clock cycle adjustment so that the GPU can decrease its Memory & core clock cycle to reduce power consumption & heat

or close the unused parts of GPU like 3d engine etc when it is only running a 2d OS?

Wake up boy, Aero is not just eye candy, it is much more. Beryl is just eye candy, try hot plugging a graphics card in a Linux system running beryl & then tell us all here whether it crashes or not.

The system requirement for aero are not much considering what it does. Beryl requires less system resource & a OpenGL 1.5 class GPU is all u need because it is only a GPU accelerated UI running on top of XServer. Aero is everything on its own, it owns the GPU compleately.

All the effects, transparency u see in Aero can be achieved in Direct 8.1 class hardware too & even in some cases DirectX 7 class, but then the GPU will need to process a lot of code, instead of which making a DX 9 based DWM engine makes sense cos well...the code is slim in this case.

Do u know that the quality of games in DirectX 10 can be achieved in DirectX 9c too, but the problem is that if the GPU does 100 unit of work to render a scene in DX 10, it will need to do 150 unit of work to show the same quality in DirectX 9c.

WOW! Could you please give some link explaining and proving even 10% of what all you said in your post?

P.S. Dont mind, but you are known for and have been caught lying many times on this forum. So i just dont believe what you say.. I need proof. Ill gladly apologise if you are able to give me proof, especially for the one that lets you hot swap your graphics card.

[Hitboxx]

Hot swap a graphics card on desktop?? LMAO.

How is that even possible? let's say your desktop is on, you open up the box, pull out the card... and put another in..... all without shutting down the system..and what happens during this non-gfx card period...what appears on the screen.....I guess its some patented secret method of Micro$oft.

No thanks, but we are happy with our low brained Compiz eye candy

EDIT: I seriously would like to know how you swap it though. Please enlighten me.

EDIT: And if your talking about CompactPCI hot swap, rest assured its much more laborious than just pulling out and plugging in, create a runtime image and all that, better off with the normal method.., and as I see it, is only applicable in heavy-duty server situations, not on desktop.

[mediator]

Swapping graphics card? AFAIK even a small change in hardware can cause VISTA to deactivate!

[kalpik]

^^ Owned! :d

[Help~Is~Here]

lolz.. thanks guys.. for a sec I thought I was alone in this "look how I can wear my pant contest"

When this thread is about eye candy on decent hardware, yet these fanboys bring in something more to say that is irrelevant to the topic. @IMav, we all know why MS has a larger market share.. Infact there is another thread running about something that they have been doing all along.. forcing people.. but please don't start your arguments here.

Keep this place clean and stick to the topic. From what has been posted here.. it has been beyond doubt that "Aero is a failure on decent hardware". Argue on that if you want not on how you can swap your pants while the PC is running escpecially when graphics cards clearly mention in the instructions NOT to pull out the card while the PC is on!

[kalpik]

^^ Exactly.. These winboys have a habit of going off topic.