India Vs China (yes, not the usual Pakistan)

[Yamaraj]

I recently came across a series of articles on India Vs. China at BusinessWeek.com. I encourage my fellow members to go through the articles as well as the comments posted there. Provided that our jingoist media is highly unlikey to aire unbiased news and debates, Internet is the only medium today which you can rely on (with caution).

1. Science panic in India - http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...e_panic_i.html

Indian outsourcing companies like Infosys, TCS and Wipro are getting bigger and bigger, and Indian pharma companies like Ranbaxy and Dr. Reddy’s are expanding in the West. But not everybody in India is buying the hype that success stories like these are paving the way for the country’s inevitable rise as an economic and scientific power. I wrote recently on the BW Asiatech blog about a report showing that India’s scientists lag far behind those of China in publishing papers.

There’s no shortage of Indian experts sounding the alarm. Consider this story from the Times of India last month, “Science is on its deathbed.” That dire diagnosis is from the Prime Minister's own science advisor, CNR Rao, who warned his boss, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, that "Indian science will be finished in the next five years. Our universities have dried up.” Vipul Mudgal, writing in the Hindustan Times, argues that “India’s science policy is falling apart just when its software prowess is being recognised and made-in-India cars are being exported to the West.”

Even somebody trying to look on the bright side can’t help but point out all of the problems. For instance, Mayank Vahia, professor of Astrophysics at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, the other day came out with a story in DNA India that tried to be upbeat about India’s potential. But Vahia also couldn’t help but point out that “What is of immediate concern is the status of education and research in Indian universities. They are riddled with mediocrity and excessive bureaucratic stranglehold. Unwarranted political interference and endemic corruption in the system are other serious problems.”

Meanwhile, China is pouring money into its universities. In June I visited two provincial capitals, Wuhan and Nanchang, in China’s interior. These aren’t coastal boomtowns like Shenzhen and Shanghai, but there are gigantic new university campuses under construction on the outskirts of these inland cities. One university in Nanchang has a huge new campus in order to accommodate its 85,000 students. That’s no typo – 85,000 students in one university. Size doesn’t guarantee quality, but China’s elite schools in Beijing and Shanghai are getting more support too. Expect the anxiety level in India to keep on rising.

2. China can build things. Why can't India? - http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...can_build.html

India’s top science and technology official is in China, making excuses about why his country’s infrastructure is so shoddy. Shanghai has brilliant new skyscrapers and museums and parks and trains – and Bombay can’t manage to have a decent airport. According to Minister for Science and Technology Kapil Sibal, it’s all because of democracy. “There is a different model of growth in our country,” Sibal told reporters in Beijing, according to this report from wire service PTI carried on Indian portal Rediff.com. “We can’t, for example, build a Pudong overnight.”

Well, neither did the Chinese. Pudong today is the result of more than a decade’s worth of work and planning and investment. The place is hardly paradise; Pudong can feel overwhelming, especially along the district’s broad boulevard. I’m not saying that Indian officials should be trying to replicate Pudong in Bombay. But falling back on the old “We’re a democracy, don’t expect too much of us” argument doesn’t cut it. Yes, the Chinese don’t have elections. But the Japanese do. So do the Koreans and the Taiwanese. They manage to build things anyway.

3. An education gap between China and India? - http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...cation_ga.html

First off, apologies for the dearth of posts lately. I was away for a few weeks. Back at work today, I saw an interesting item from a few days ago written by Cheng Hu, a columnist for online magazine The Globalist, arguing that India should learn from the way China has emphasized education. “I still remember vividly how speechless I was when my Indian colleague told me that in some public schools in India, teachers never or seldom show up,” writes Cheng. “If the same thing were to happen in any village in China, the irresponsible teachers would be living in contempt of the villagers. And the villagers would keep pressuring the authorities until the teachers were removed or fired altogether.”

According to Cheng, China’s economic rise is due in part to the government’s success in building the country’s school system. “This is a lesson India should take to heart,” he adds. “While many commentators bemoan India’s lack of infrastructure as the main factor preventing it from becoming an economic powerhouse, it is not the only one. A poor basic education system is a less obvious but even more imperative problem that demands a solution. Without a quality schooling system, the industrialization of India will continue to lag behind that of its giant neighbor to the East.”

China’s education system certainly still needs a lot of work. Many schools, especially in the countryside, are shabby. Despite efforts by education reformers to promote creativity, students and teachers still have to focus most of their energy on preparing for standardized tests. And China’s schools – at least the ones that I have visited over the years – are overwhelmingly male, with a handful of girls among a sea of boys. That said, though, the Chinese have made a lot of progress in promoting universal primary education and have ambitious targets to boost the number of children who go on to high school. (FYI, for more on China's school reforms, see this BW story I wrote two years ago.) And Cheng isn’t the only one bemoaning the problems of India’s schools. Indian officials know that India needs to do a better job educating its children. For instance, see this Zee story citing Union Human Resource Development Minister Arjun Singh acknowledging that reformers have a long way to go in India. Says Singh: “Surveys of attainment levels of our school children do not give much cause for satisfaction.” He adds: “Despite our various achievements and increased financial outlays, we are still quite some distance away from the goal of every child completing eight years of good quality education." I’ve written a lot in this blog about the infrastructure gap between India and China. According to people like Cheng and Singh, there’s a big education gap, too.

4. China tops India again - http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...tops_indi.html

China’s science and engineering community has been distracted the past few months by a series of scandals involving accusations of fraud and plagiarism. But the incidents, however embarrassing, don’t seem to be slowing the rush of U.S. companies expanding their R&D operations in the country. For big multinationals, China’s low-cost talent pool, government support and huge market are what matter, and so companies are willing to invest in knowledge workers even with what could be a greater risk of wrongdoing. The latest example: last week Ruey Bin Kao, president of Motorola China, said that the U.S. telecom giant is adding another 1,000 R&D workers in China this year. (Here's the story from the Xinhua website.) In other words, by yearend Motorola will employ 50% more R&D staff in China than a year ago.

China’s progress is certainly making some people nervous. For some years now, many Indians have taken solace from the idea that China may be ahead in manufacturing, but can’t compare to India when it comes to R&D. Or, as Sunil Jain writes in India’s Business Standard, “Tradition has it that while China is the factory of the world, India is going to be the laboratory of the world.” But, Jain adds, a top science body in India, the Scientific Advisory Council, last week caused jitters among Indians after assessing a recent U.S. military report comparing the research output of scientists in China, India and other developing countries. Not only was India behind China in number of papers published, Jain notes, but far more Chinese research papers are landing in top Western journals. More worrisome still for the Indians – and encouraging for the Chinese – is the likelihood that the trend is going to continue: Jain writes that the World Bank’s “Knowledge Index,” a ranking that looks at a country’s scientific fundamentals including Internet and PC usage, patents, and IT adoption by local companies, also skews heavily toward China. In 1995 China scored 3.03 and now scores 4.21, he writes, but India has gone in the other direction, scoring 2.76 11 years ago and just 2.61 today. With scores like that, China can afford to suffer its share of embarrassing science scandals.

5. India – 163 years behind China? - http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...163_years.html

Some Asiatech readers complain that I'm anti-India, that I spend too much time comparing India to China, and that in these comparisons all too often India comes out looking bad. But of course lots of top Indian officials do the same thing. For instance: Gangan Prathap, the top scientist at the Centre for Mathematical Modelling and Computer Simulation in Banaglore. The C-MMACS, which got its start in the late 1980s by India’s Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, has its offices on the campus of the National Aerospace Laboratories, so it’s safe to say that it’s not peopled by a bunch of India-haters. Yet Prathap, the scientist-in-charge of the center, the other day made headlines with his unfavorable comparison of India to China. According to a report in Indian newspaper The Telegraph, Prathap says that India is more than a century and a half behind China when it comes to sci-tech human resources. According to the Telegraph’s report, “India will take at least 163 years to match China’s research workforce of 850,000 even if Beijing were to freeze the number today.” More: Prathap “has now used simple school algebra to show that even if India’s 4,500 annual science doctorates were to join the 115,000-strong science and technology workforce, the country won’t be able to touch the figure of 850,000 until 2170 AD.”

And Prathap is not the only Indian scientist pointing out that people shouldn’t fool themselves into thinking that success in IT outsourcing and generic drugmaking mean India’s rise as a high-tech power is a sure thing. For instance, the Telegraph quotes Rajesh Kochchar, former director of the National Institute of Science Technology and Development Studies, saying “We’ve lulled ourselves into thinking we’re doing great things.” The Telegraph also quotes C.N.R. Rao, head of the Scientific Advisory Committee to the Prime Minister, bemoaning the situation: “India’s share of global research publications in science has dropped to unbelievably low levels.” Fortunately, Indian officials like these realize that it's useful to compare their country's progress (or lack thereof) with that of the other would-be Asian superpower.

Do not post without reading the articles WITH comments posted below each. I don't want this thread to turn into a pointless cheat-thumping fight, or as the Amrikaans say - a p1$$ing competition. I welcome honest, rational and intelligent opinions. Even if the author of the articles is an idiot and bigot, which we'll find out while we discuss, there is no harm in thinking out of the black-box-hype that our extremely stupid and overy zealous media-kids have created.

Let's discuss!

[esumitkumar]

HI Yamaraj

I have read all the posts... I had been to Hong Kong ..and I had seen there that despite scarcity of land, how those ppl have managed to build world class infra..do u know HK airport is built by filling 16 small islands on the sea..

In our country, democracy is a big problem .as our netas are illiterate and corrupt, they dont have enough akal to think abt these issues...all they care is abt money and vote bank politics...

In China , u see communism is everything..if govt wants they can hang a man without any reason..havent u heard of Tianmen Square , Beijing killing of thousand students

So everything has its pros and cons.....

by the way ..thanks for the informative articles

[outlaw]

yeah china is like semi - authoriorian state......

china cannot be called a demcratic state...

but india is truly democratic - so it takes time...

but i am glad to be free citizen in a democratic country than bein a puppet in a communitst nation

[Yamaraj]

That's why we need a strong government like that of China, but not at the cost of our freedom. [Indian] Democracy isn't the only way. We just need to change the way we think. I can clearly see that everyone in this country is sick of politicians - be it military servicemen, intellectuals, businessmen like Narayan Murthy et al or the "aam junta". But they lack the will and courage because of the pro-democracy institutionalization starting at early years. People no longer think about alternatives. And this is precisely what power-brokers want - simpletons, lining up to cast their votes without thinking much.

Read these two posts where I've taken on the Indian "freedom" and the Tiananmen Square issue.
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...9&postcount=43
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...9&postcount=46

[amol48]

@Yamraj

I agree you that we don't need a govt. at the cost of freedom like China, BUT what kind of freedom do you have in INDIA ?
1]Take the recent reservation issue. We had freedom so we opposed, but what has happened till now !!
2]Take the Electricity problems in the semi-urban and rural area(Maharashtra). Did you know that the people there have even burnt offices and badly beaten up the officers of the State Elec. Board.
If i start giving examples, full thesis can be written. 'Freedom' is useful only when there's someone to listen to you. The people of India has tried to made the govt. listen by all means, silent protest, anger,violence etc. What's left now? If you say of electing 'Right' candidate then sorry there are very few in India and so of no use!
Then what should you do ? Enter into politics and get it done the right way! NO you can't coz all the roads there aer blocked by them. No matter how powerful (economically) you are you can't get into politics easily.
What's the use of such FREEDOM.

You know, when i ask my grandparents (who are from rural area)that were they happy during British Raj, they always say that their worries staretd after the Independence. They never even seen the Britishers. They say that what we have heard about the so called 'Atyachar' is only confined to Cities and that too with the people who are 'Actively' involved. Rest of the people never really had problems. It's just a thing to be said that India was suffering under British rule. It's true that they looted us but today's Politicians aren't doing anything different! Did you know that the longest lenght of railway line that we boast today is due to British only and not India. Out the 66,000km rail route, 58,000 was built pre-independence times. In 150 years 58,000, that too in those days. And in 60 yrs 8,000 with today.s technology. This is INDIA!!! So i think for a country like India where Democracy has failed miserably, commusim should be imposed at least for few years thogh not permanently

[saikibryan]

our country is a poor one...
communism should succeed in poor countries...
but we r also boasts of so much religions and casts...
that makes it difficult...
personally i'd favour for democracy...
it's unfortunate that we have nasty politicians in our country
but tell ya wat, we people can only blame each other
politicians/doctors/lawyers/cops...etc come from our society itself
if we can't do our part properly there would never be a solution

@amol48: buddy i can add one fact, only howrah to delhi railway track is fully electric...no other track, imagine

[amol48]

@saikaibryan
THX buddy.. i wasn aware of that !

After independence the Nehru led govt. stressed more on BIG industries and BIG cities. Rather it should have utilised the full man power of rural areas unlike capitalist countries. It would have not created the problem of overcrowing in urban areas, which we face today and also unemployment.

Nehru was under the influence of capitalist and developed countries and didn bother to utilise the man-power in India and that's where China went ahead of us and now we know where China stands !!

[nix]

the problem is corrupt govt. india needs a revolution. there is just too much mess around. if we continue like this, we will be in serious problem...we are not understanding the gravity of the situation here. the whole system sucks here.
and coming to kargil, indians have always been meek...from the raja's time...we have always given in easily. i guess its there in the nature...moguls came, saw and conquered and then it was the british...and i can see whats coming next. but dont want to mention here.
in china there is fear of the govt, here ppl are free to do anyting, and indians dont deserve this freedom. democracy works only in white countries....

[Yamaraj]

@Amol

I never liked the development of big luxurious cities at the cost of poor and peaceful villages. I also strongly oppose to the concept of a market driven society and capitalist culture. Why should an armchair manager earn hundreds of times that of an ordinary worker, who works equally harder if not more? Isn't it ironic that this capitalist economic class-system was being erected while social reformers were educating people about the caste-class problems everywhere?

The problem with this country is the ever widening gap between the developed and the underdeveloped, the rich and the poor, and between "India" and "Bharat". We're hopelessly trying to mimic the model of developed nations without giving much thought to our indigenous problems. And that's because our policy makers are not exactly farsighted, and their eyes cannot see past the concrete and steel.

I'm of the opinion that freedom is merely a state of mind, and democracy is overrated.

[amol48]

Originally Posted by nix

in china there is fear of the govt, here ppl are free to do anyting, and indians dont deserve this freedom. democracy works only in white countries....

Rightly Said...!!

[keep_it_rl]

Originally Posted by nix

in china there is fear of the govt, here ppl are free to do anyting, and indians dont deserve this freedom. democracy works only in white countries....

Isnt it a good thing.Should'nt u be responsible for ur action and do wht u think is right,and not beacause ur afraid of the government..

Guys i recently saw a documentary by BBC Bout the same issue..

China may have a very good infrastructures in the metros, but its equally f****d whn it comes to the villages ..
More polluted than india

[nix]

^more polluted than india..?? indians are the biggest polluters...we pollute rivers in the name of traditions and customs, the general indian mentality is that of -"others do it, why shouldnt i ? ".
but if you have seen visuals of china on TV, even the rural, and small lanes of china are clean.

[47shailesh]

Originally Posted by amol48

You know, when i ask my grandparents (who are from rural area)that were they happy during British Raj, they always say that their worries staretd after the Independence. They never even seen the Britishers. They say that what we have heard about the so called 'Atyachar' is only confined to Cities and that too with the people who are 'Actively' involved. Rest of the people never really had problems. It's just a thing to be said that India was suffering under British rule. It's true that they looted us but today's Politicians aren't doing anything different! Did you know that the longest lenght of railway line that we boast today is due to British only and not India. Out the 66,000km rail route, 58,000 was built pre-independence times. In 150 years 58,000, that too in those days. And in 60 yrs 8,000 with today.s technology. This is INDIA!!! So i think for a country like India where Democracy has failed miserably, commusim should be imposed at least for few years thogh not permanently

Hmm.. U have some prob or U learn by RUMOURS,

(Please mention the source when you give figures )

1: Railway: when you say:

let's take the figure you say only 8000 in 60 years...

>India's railway system is Asia's largest. The network covers a route length of over 62,000 km and it is serviced by over 7,000 stations and 11,000 trains.

> During the British era, there were just four classes in a train—First, Second, Inter and Third. After Independence, not only the Third Class was abolished but a number of new options were also provided—3 Tier, 2-Tier and Chair Cars, suiting everyone’s choice and pocket

> introduction of air-conditioned coaches

>speed potential has gone up from 96 KMPH to 150+ KMPH.

> infrastuctre fully manufactures in india

> steam locomotives to eletric locomotives

>70 electric locos to 3500+ electric locos.

>Til1947, only 388 route kilometres were electrified...NOW 15000+ KMs

> Railways took a policy decision in the in the 1960s to build its own communication network. In the last thirty years, about 20,000 route kilometres have been equipped with analog microwave system. This is now being gradually replaced by state-of-the-art digital technology.

> local tourists there is a 100 Budget Hotels Project which will add 10000 hotel rooms in the organized sector in the country this generate direct employment to 30000 people

>So far about 13000 km of metre gauge and narrow gauge have been converted to broad gauge networks.

> Devlopment does not count by one measure it has many to make it complete..

> BHEL is one of the biggest leap in devlopment of railways. now other nations rely on BHEL for there locomatives...

When you say how many new km line added that never counts the degree of parrallelism added... Earilier there were only single route from source to destination now exists 4 lans

Source

[zyberboy]

Originally Posted by keep_it_rl

Isnt it a good thing.Should'nt u be responsible for ur action and do wht u think is right,and not beacause ur afraid of the government..

correct

Originally Posted by nix

^more polluted than india..?? indians are the biggest polluters...we pollute rivers in the name of traditions and customs, the general indian mentality is that of -"others do it, why shouldnt i ? ".
but if you have seen visuals of china on TV, even the rural, and small lanes of china are clean.

Who said, more tan 30% of green house gas emmission is frm usa.And the latest is, ur china is going to overtake usa within 2 yrs.India is in 5th place.And wt u saw in Tv may be some cartoons.

[Edburg]

Regarding the railways,I live in Perambur,Chennai the hub of trains in south.

I have seen the employees in railways.....old,lazy and unskilled.I see them and live among them.?Many of them just go to job and sleep there and return home.my frind's father stays in there for just a couplre of hours and then comes home everyday.All this inefficeincy is spoiling the railways heritage.

If the Gov. privitises it or replace job positions imagine whhat will happen in India....Huge strikes and bandhs spoiling everything..Add to that some politicians will join the strikes hoping to get support from railway workers.

As someone said,India is unfit for democracy.

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by Edburg

As someone said,India is unfit for democracy.

Absolutely!

[47shailesh]

Originally Posted by Yamaraj

Absolutely!

All of us are reponsible for what we see.. i m not saying to revolt nor asking to wish for huge change....

Do on ur level what u can do at ur level... if u see sleeping a railway employee.. insult him infront of all do not abuse but make him feel for a moment..for that day he will not repeat again.. we have to make things improve nothing will improve by it's own

[Yamaraj]

^I believe in making changes, and in acting with an iron hand. But we must come together and form our own group of honest young people, capable of running this country. What's there to say that we can't run this country better than those clowns in the parliament?

[47shailesh]

That's what i m asking.. topics like this must be there for awareness but people here seem dishearted and willing some miracle to change the things arround us...

"Every citizen is a police men".

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by 47shailesh

That's what i m asking.. topics like this must be there for awareness but people here seem dishearted and willing some miracle to change the things arround us...

Exactly! You should check out my "Does India need a revolution" thread. There are even more discouraging posts by some fellow members.

[zyberboy]

Originally Posted by 47shailesh

but people here seem dishearted and willing some miracle to change the things arround us...
"Every citizen is a police men".

Correct,every person shud change,first try to correct our own mistakes.

"Democracy is an impossible thing until the power is shared by all, but let not democracy degenerate into mobocracy."
--MK Gandhi

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by cyberboy_kerala

Correct,every person shud change,first try to correct our own mistakes.

Easier said than done.

[praka123]

Bihar needs a benevolent dictator real soon.he who take back the karodes of rupees lalu parsad yadav eaten,gundaraj and more.

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by praka123

Bihar needs a benevolent dictator real soon.he who take back the karodes of rupees lalu parsad yadav eaten,gundaraj and more.

And what about the thousands of crores looted by CMs of Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, and PMs and ministers of the central government? Who's going to recover "lakhs of crores" of Indian black money from Swiss, German and US banks?

The whole country needs a benevolent dictator, and a completely rewritten constitution.

[zyberboy]

Originally Posted by Yamaraj

Easier said than done.

Can also be easily done....not asking for high end revolt isn't?. If u can't correct urself easily...why blaming others.

Topic is india vs china , i wonder how many of us here hav actually contributed anything to our nation

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by cyberboy_kerala

Can also be easily done....not asking for high end revolt isn't?. If u can't correct urself easily...why blaming others.

Then why hasn't it be done before yet?

Originally Posted by cyberboy_kerala

Topic is india vs china , i wonder how many of us here hav actually contributed anything to our nation

What do you think I am doing here? Making people aware of their rights, their government, their country, their strength is the best possible service, IMHO. I am contributing to make this country a much better place to live and prosper. I am contributing my ideas and views on different matters, and asking my fellow citizens to participate in debates and active criticism.

The question is - are people willing to listen, learn, understand and ready to change?

[zyberboy]

Originally Posted by Yamaraj

What do you think I am doing here? Making people aware of their rights, their government, their country, their strength is the best possible service, IMHO. I am contributing to make this country a much better place to live and prosper. I am contributing my ideas and views on different matters, and asking my fellow citizens to participate in debates and active criticism.

yeah good intenstion,but no awareness abt india's achievment,why no post like no 13(BHEL first in the world),problems faced by chinese people due to their rapid development(india vs china ).

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by cyberboy_kerala

yeah good intenstion,but no awareness abt india's achievment,why no post like no 13(BHEL first in the world),problems faced by chinese people due to their rapid development(india vs china ).

Because to succeed, it's necessary to take on your weaknesses before celebrating your strengths.

[Edburg]

I think that for india to succeed as a super power over china,some major changes has to be done in politics field.

MY suggestions are : 1.Make educated people as compulsory in politics
2.Dont give politicians everything by Gov.Make them feel the problems faced by common public.ie dont treat them as someone great.

but wiht our current state of politicians they will try to oppose these as much as they can.

[amol48]

Originally Posted by Edburg

MY suggestions are : 1.Make educated people as compulsory in politics

Completely Agreed.. but the people who make the law itself are 'such' polticians whom we hate... !!! That's where the problem is. It's like a viscous circle.