Is Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain Live or Dead?

[Ankur Mittal]

Hey guys I would like to ask all of the members to give their views that what they think about Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Haussain that whether they are alive or dead? I know that most of us have seen the death of Saddam Hussain on Television but few days after hanging him the AajTak reported that the person who was hanged was not Saddam Hussain but his duplicate.So all of you should give your views.This would be surely a nice topic to debate about.

[shantanu]

Saddam is dead but OSAMA IS ALIVE ... i played GTA with him in MP today

[lalam]

Both have transformed into a zombie of sort

[ssdivisiongermany1933]

I met today Usama bin laden at jama masjid , had lunch with him

[prasad_den]

Saddam is physically dead... but he'll live for many years to come - until the US comes out of IRaq, to be exact..!! Osama is very much alive...

[Yamaraj]

They better be dead. For if they're not, they'll be repeatedly executed for the crimes they never committed.

[shantanu]

look buddy !!! i dont say anything about OSAMA but SADDAM is liked that guy... he was a powerfull leader and AMERICA didnt had any right to do what they did....

my sympathy is with him... and i dont go on what saddam did by executing people... (my own thoughts) nothing personal...

[bugmenot]

he managed the country....
or the neighouring countries wudhav eaten up IRAQ...
he was a good leader...
me too with him....

[piyush gupta]

Both are alive

wanna see them goto ISS

[Ankur Mittal]

Originally Posted by piyush gupta

Both are alive

wanna see them goto ISS

What is ISS,I didn't get it

[Ganeshkumar]

What will US do keeping Sadam alive???

I think they would have executed....

n No idea on Osama...

[aj27july]

osama is alive as it has not been proved that he is dead. but the video shown on tv makes me think that saddam is dead.

[dOm1naTOr]

ARe they dead???i ll google it nd tell

[deepak.krishnan]

Hope Laden is alive to "crush that Bush"!!!

[VD17]

I personally have my reservations about mr. bin laden being alive. There has been lot of speculation that he is dead.. but, if he really wasnt, why wouldnt he come up on the camera and show his sadistic face to bush and co.? that'd screw bush's nights for a while... or burn a couple million more gallons of fuel, tons of bombings and billion rounds of ammo, in air and ground raids...

[nix]

@yamraj: what crimes have they not comitted? its not about saddam, but when it comes to osama...there should be no doubt in anybody's mind...he's a religious fanatic who wants the whole world to convert to islam...

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by nix

@yamraj: what crimes have they not comitted? its not about saddam, but when it comes to osama...there should be no doubt in anybody's mind...he's a religious fanatic who wants the whole world to convert to islam...

Saddam - USA supported him against Iran in the Iraq-Iran war. They even supplied the chemical and biological weapons to be used against Iranians, Kurds and others. USA gave the green signal to Saddam, when he asked for support for his attack on Kuwait. But then suddenly, USA changed its stance and attacked Iraq. It's all about regional politics and balance of power. As long as Saddam was playing a puppet in their hands, he was their boy. We all know what followed next, when he refused to do so later.

Osama - All we(most of us) know about him and his "Al Qaeda" is through American media - the likes of CNN. According to some independent experts, there was never a terrorist group named Al Qaeda. CIA invented this name, just as they forged countless insuegent groups against Cuba, Iran and some African countries. Osama was only a scapegoat. He never had that kind of money, technical expertise and willingless to attack USA on their ground.

There is a lot more to the reality than we know of. There are many "inside jobs" ongoing in both Afghanistan and Iraq that are blamed on Al Qaeda and Iran respectively. There is no such thing as the "War on Terror". It's about as fake as silicon b**bs.

Many won't [like to] believe that attack on our Parliament (and the IA plane hijacking) could also have been fabricated. Just as the Patriot law was being cleared in US congress easily, after the 9/11, our great politicians were keeping a keen eye on the happenings. Soon , the Paliament was attacked and POTA was modelled after the Patriot in USA. Unfortunately, we never had the balls to attack Pakistan like USA did with Afghanistan and later - Iraq.

[nix]

Originally Posted by Yamaraj

Osama - All we(most of us) know about him and his "Al Qaeda" is through American media - the likes of CNN. According to some independent experts, there was never a terrorist group named Al Qaeda. CIA invented this name, just as they forged countless insuegent groups against Cuba, Iran and some African countries. Osama was only a scapegoat. He never had that kind of money, technical expertise and willingless to attack USA on their ground.

ok i kinda agree w/ the saddam part. but why would they make him(osama) a scapegoat? osama was known to be a terrorist even before 9/11 and had direct or indirect involvement in many other bombings...
and dont tell me the war on terror isnt working..its so much more difficult for terrorists to attack now than then[before 9/11]. dude, if 9/11 was fabricated, why would he accept responsibility on video?

[Yamaraj]

Originally Posted by nix

ok i kinda agree w/ the saddam part. but why would they make him(osama) a scapegoat? osama was known to be a terrorist even before 9/11 and had direct or indirect involvement in many other bombings...
and dont tell me the war on terror isnt working..its so much more difficult for terrorists to attack now than then[before 9/11]. dude, if 9/11 was fabricated, why would he accept responsibility on video?

Osama is also known to have had connections with the Bush family, and with many of the US administration and businessmen. Why should we be so selective about the facts, only because a certain faction wants us to? Don't forget that he wasn't a "terrorist" all those years of his fighting against the Soviets. As for the videos, we can never be sure if he was forced into accepting or was coerced due to mutual understanding and shared benefits between the parties. Also, Osama was never a terrorist or a terrorist leader himself. He only provided resources and help to those who wanted to fight against the Soviets. His feud with the peers is only a small part of the propaganda that helped US establish their military bases in Afghanistan and Iraq - to counterbalance the growing powers in Asia and the Russia.

[mediator]

Yea, Osama isn't a terrorist even after his threats to so many nations and his video footages telling the whole stories , the attack on parliament was faked up like some work of a military dictator in this democratic country and may be the killings of soo many Indians in Kashmir, serial bombings in Mumbai,srinagar,delhi etc is also unreal or faked up. May be we really need to know the "inside story"!!

[Yamaraj]

One of my disks died last week. I blame it on Osama.

[mediator]

I wonder wats the "inside story"!

[Yamaraj]

1. Osama has surely threatened many, but US has actually gone out and done it.

2. Videos can be staged, faked and fabricated. Ever wonder how many different video footages and pictures of Saddam were in circulation on the eve of the Iraq attack in 2003? CIA does this for a living.

3. If parliament elections can be staged and hijacked in this "democratic country", fabricating a short and quick slaying of a few "terrorists" after setting them free briefly isn't a tough job at all. Again, our own forces have faked many encounters with terrorists for medals and money. Newspapers, anyone?

4. What proof is there that CIA[1] is/was not involved in serial blasts and other unfortunate incidents?

5. The only inside story is that you should be capable of thinking out-of-the-box. People are literally feeding onto the junk food produced by mass media. US itself is a perfect example of how media can be used to brainwash the people into thinking what their leaders want them to.

6. Many tend to overlook the fact that IC-814 hijacking and 9/11 are closely related. The released terrorists and the ransom money paid were used later for the biggest media staged scam ever. The only reason 9/11 was covered so well from all angles, was to coerce billions into believing what they were witnessing on their TV-sets. It's not easy to deny what happened before your eyes.

[1] - Or others, like Mossad, SVR, the Chinese, even ISI-the-scapegoat[2].
[2] - Just like our politicians love to blame everything on ISI, Osama is the favorite whip-boy of the World.

[mediator]

1. OFcors thats bad as well, and in no ways a reason to justify Osama's acts. Even if he lends money to carry on the terrorist activities then also he is a terrorist for helping a terrorist. In both war and terrorism civilians r the end sufferers, but that doesn't justify the killings of mostly civilians in september 11. And why is he n his group threatening other countries if he's annoyed by US?

2. In the sadam case, I agree it was a brutal act n they r after the oil fields. Thats why I think US is the biggest terrorist nation

3. Not only that, but they keep terrorists with them in cells and announce at appropriate time that they captured x terrorists to get some medals and to show the newspapers that terrorists hunting is active. Some do it for medals. But wats the "inside story" in the parliament attack? Wat did they want to achieve that led them to waste so many crores of money in mobilising the forces in Kashmir? It wud have been a serious war out there, but I'm glad it didn't. India didn't pulle out becoz just US was saying so. Not only US, but the whole world was urging India to back out! That didn't mean India didn't have the balls! I dont think war is really necessary to break Pakistan into pieces. Have a look in Pakistan,look at their economy and u'll urself see how much it is at a brink of civil war.

4. There r so many news channels in this democratic nation trying to get the first hand classified news n there r many inside stories and similar articles in both TV news channels and newspapers. Its ok to think differently and suspect CIA in it too. But do u think that we r the only one who can think likewise?

5. May be becoz of that almost half of the US and almost the whole europe (i.e the civilians) opposed the US actions on IRAQ!! Do u really think garbage can be filled in our minds that easily? Atleast we r not living in conditions like in Pakistan where only Islamic activities r applauded, everything is done at all the levels to create hatred for India and news like pakis getting treated in India for free is hidden from the masses. Watch PTV if u get bored sometime!

6. But the loss of billions of dollars of money, lives of over 2500 civilians and 2 towers IMHO cannot be called a scam. I dont think a person no matter how corrupt can do a thing like that and that too to his own people.

[2] He is at a same level as Bush.

[Yamaraj]

1. US has supported more terrorist activities than Osama could ever dream of. I wonder if any national leader has the balls to call Bush a terrorist. Once again, US was/is not getting enough NATO support in Afghanistan. The video footages of his "threats" were supposed to make other NATO members rethink their stance on the War on Terror and support US more.

3. The force mobilization in J&K was merely a publicity stunt. And I loathe them for the wasted money, time and efforts. Remember that our wise old Vajpayee was the first to congratulate Mushy after he threw out Nawaaz and assumed Presidency, despite the fact that he was responsible for hundreds of sacrificed lives in Kargil. What kind of a PM would do such thing? I immediately lost my respect for that man. Not all old are wise, and not all wise are old.

We, including our Jawaans, are mere pawns in the game of politics. We are expendable. It is, therefore, not good for health to assume that such things cannot happen in a democracy.

4. Media tycoons are more closely connected with the politicians than most happen to think. In fact, many channels are in partnership with different parties and individual politicians for news bytes, investment et cetera.

5. Then what good is democracy if politicians ignore the will of citizens? Again, the common man is expendable in their big games of power and resources. If the majority believes that 9/11 was carried out by Osama & Co., then the Amrikaan media has succeeded in making fools of us all. As I said it before, not many can deny what they witnessed before their eyes, or on their television.

6. Ever heard of Stalin, or Ivan "The Terrible"? A few of us are certainly capable of bringing atrocities to our own, in personal benefits and interests. 2500 is still quite a low figure assuming there could be at least 40-50000 people in the towers at peak hours. If I were a terrorist, I would have carried out the attacks when the towers were full to their maximum. The mind behind the attacks was surely not of a terrorist - it was trying to minimize the damage.

BTW, it is also said that US administration let Japs attack Pearl Harbor, so the US could join WW2. It is no secret that US knew Europeans were weakened by then and it was a time very ripe to rise as a World superpower.

[mediator]

1. And I support ur reply ! But that doesn't mean national leaders don't have the balls to call bush a terrorist. They r leaders and have to think for the whole nation. And that requires using brains and not doing wateva the heart says! We r still not so developed that we can face sanctions and survive elegantly! Even if the company head is an arrogant fool, u still have to bow in front of him if u wanna rise!!

3. I respect your thought. But did u think further than that? THe whole world after that respected India very much. Paki's economy went to a downswing. India has different tactics dealing with such things and not doing things directly. An army man can explain things like this much better. NOw see India's position and see Paki's position. India is increasing its hold in afghanistan and paki is losing it. If u watch news u'll come to know how much afghanis hate pakis. If u know about the situation in pakistan then u must be knowing about balochistan as well. India knows where to hurt Pakistan the most. Going to a direct war is no solution, it may be last resort though! And I agree the lives of jawans shud be valued!

4. THose "many" channels r the ones who get the least publicity! Its not that some channels can show a diferent news than others. They have to be in conformity if they want their ratings to go high!

5. As I said they cannot make fool of us so easily. Can they really afford such a huge loss as I explained earlier? I hope the worlds greatest power isn't that stupid to face such a huge loss just to go after osama and then lose 1 soldier and again 1000s of dollars of money per day on average in afghanistan!

6. The attack took around 5-6 pm in Indian time. That means around 1 pm in US. Isn't 1 pm a peak working time normally? Also US isn't that populated as India is and 2500 was just a rounded figure that I remembered. The actual figure is more than that. But still I can't figure out how the damage looked so minimal to u! Why r u actually bringing stalin to it? IMHO even a figure of 1000 is a pretty gigantic figure and the economic loss adds to it.

About ur last statement I wont be surprised if its actually true....history has been a witness how much bully US has been.

[Yamaraj]

1. How many US Presidents and Generals have been tried in a court of law for the war crimes, attacks on civilians and illegal wars on countries? That alone says a lot about organizations like US and the International Court. The point is that you can get away with any crime if you're powerful enough.

3. Diplomacy is one thing, respect for life is another. If I were the PM of India, I would have had Mushy arrested and tried - or even executed by assassins in his own country. Shaking hands with the murderer of one's people is the worst crime a politician can commit. Sadly enough, they're even applauded for that. "Peace processes" after the Kargil are a shame on our face. It shows that we don't value the lives of our warriors.

4. How many "high-level" politicians have been exposed on the television? Why only a few small fishes get whipped by the media? Why no channel ever aires news of "Rahul Baba" getting arrested in a foreign country with a girl and money? I'm not a conspiracy-theorist, but there is a lot more than meets the eye.

5. Any war planner will tell you that a few soldiers must be sacrificed on the front for the benefits later. How many do you think our own government sacrificed in Kashmir and Kargil? 2500-3000 civilians and soldiers don't matter much when future strongholds are at the stakes. US wanted to make its presence stronger in Middle-East. 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran have provided the masala needed for the military establishments across the region. US wants complete control over the oil-fields - overseeing the growing powers of China.

6. First airliner crashed into the WTC at around 8:46AM in the morning. Second crashed at 9:03AM local time. It was too early for the towers to be crowded to its full. Some 3000 people died in total, but according to Wikipedia and other sources - "On any given day, approximately 50,000 people worked in the towers, with another 200,000 passing through as visitors."

Had the "terrorists" in mind inflicting maximum damage to the US, as any fanatic terrorist would normally do, they would have chosen a correct time frame and caused about 250,000 casualties - a hundred times more than the actual figure.

Also, the economics of the loss and benefits from the attacks is so complex, I have stopped thinking about it. But the benefits far outweigh losses - both in terms of economy, and strategy.

UPDATE: -
----------
For those who swear by Osama's confession that he indeed planned the 9/11 attacks. Read below: -

Bin Laden Denial
Bin Laden denied involvement with the 9/11 attacks five days later on the Al-Jazeera satellite channel:

"I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation ... "
This denial was broadcasted worldwide, but the Bush administration urged media in the U.S. not to show the video as they claimed it might contain signals to other elements of al-Qaeda.

On September 28, 2001 in the Pakistani newspaper Daily Ummat [4], bin Laden again denied any involvement with the attacks, and suggested he was being framed:

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people ..."
"There exists a government within the government of the United States. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out these attacks. The United States should trace the perpetrators of these attacks to those persons who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own nation could survive."


From - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_tapes

Also read: -
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bbc_wtc7_videos.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bi...-11_truth.html

[mediator]

1. I understand and agree, but still that doesn't justify Osama as innocent or him being a terrorist as some fabricated story!

2. I agree here too ! But wat can u do, when almost whole of Paki supports terrorists activities and bombs sell there at the same rate of vegetable in India? Why do u want to arrest Musharraf alone? He's just a puppet after all abused by ISI on one side and US on other.

4. I dunno wat channels u watch, but that was aired in delhi atleast! Neways, u know that rahul was arrested and similarly many know that news! It was aired till the sensation lasted! I believe u that u r not a conspiracy-theorist, but believe me that u r not the only one in this world that know of such things and can think likewise. Scandals, scams unearth everyday and if they'll make some sensation and channel rating to go up then they'll obviously be aired!
How many Indian TV news channels do u think the politicians can close? I have lost the count of how many of them exist at present!! Its not that the news channels fear politicians, but its the reverse in reality!

5. I think ur underestimating Indian military to even think that they use such bad tactics and lose soldiers on purpose! I wont say that they(govt) sacrificed the soldiers, for it requires u to think n use some brains for even some weak tactic to work like u said, I wud rather say that they r corrupt and r full of themselves that they dont even think about the border situation!

Neways, did China operate like US in the past to become stronger? Losing billions-trillions of dollars in afghanistan, then again in Iraq with the loss rising per day and soldiers getting frustrated. I agree US is insane, but Do u think US is that insane that it will lose another trillions in bombarding Iran just to become stronger (if it really can)? May be it will bombard N.korea and then rest of the world tooo and bring its economy to its knees some day! Do u think it will make it stronger? So like I said, a figure of 2500 is huge, twin towers that were the epicentre of economy added dramatically to it and now the loss of human lives and money spent on maintaining their forces in mid-east is just taking additional toll on them! I dont see how it will make them stronger.

6. And if the US really had planned it, then they wud have done with minimum casualities i.e when all were sleeping at their home! I still dont understand how after seeing the total loss experienced by US, u still think its the work of US!
Also remember, after 9/11 they didn't go to Iraq (which has huge oil reserves) to catch Saddam but went after osama in AFGHANISTAN.

What r the benefits ur talking about? So far I have only seen them losing manpower and economic power! If it keeps like this, then I doubt if in future the americans will join US army or even think about joining it. Will all of that make it stronger?

[Yamaraj]

1. The point is that why should we believe the words of US, which itself has a history of erecting and supporting terrorism in many parts of the World? Osama is/was not a saint, but definitely not the portrayed savage either.

4. Politicians do not need to shut channels down. They're partners in this business. Don't forget that national secrets are not aired on television.

5. It's a truth that civilians and soldiers are sacrificed on one front to reap benefits on another. Saddam was never going to attack US, but still they invaded Iraq and lost their soldiers. Why? Because it was necessary to make US presence in the region felt by everyone. US can't stand the mere thought of China becoming a major power in 20-25 years to come. China will need oil for any development, and US wants to secure all oil-fields in the region to hamper their dreams of becoming a superpower. It's a long term project. As many of the US bureaucrats have said it in media before, they'll not pull out of the region for next 20-25 years.

China is not a superpower yet, nor it will be as strong as US ever. The reason is simply that Chinese economy is heavily dependent on the US market and the Dollar. One move by US against China, and they will be devastated economically.

US doesn't really have to care about the billions and trillions, thanks to the way World economy works. Besides, it's a long term investement, and the interests paid now will reward richly later.

US is not going to "invade" Iran. And North Korea is their puppet in reality. They use NK to keep Japan under check, and Japan to keep China under control. This is how their "balance of power" works in the region.

6. It's a bit unrealistic to pull off a terrorist attack at night, and hardly believable. I think 3000 was an acceptable figure to the planners - whoever they were. But I still stress that a fanatic terrorist planner would have targeted the tower at its peak.

US didn't directly go to Iraq, because they needed a platform to launch attacks later. Afghanistan was much easier as a platform compared with Iraq - given the shabby government there and the International support for them. This is a war strategy. Now with their presence in both places, it's a lot easier for the US to carry out "Shock & Awe" attacks on Iran, whenever they desire. Also, a strong presence in the ME deters China from eyeing the oil-fields there. That's also a good place for keeping an eye on Russia and controlling elements in Eastern European countries under US influence.

US is too powerful to be weakened by these issues. Manpower was never a problem for them, since even many foreign nationals are willing to recuit under thier Army only for a US visa. They have conscripts all over the World. Besides, manpower is more of a burden sometimes. Mobilizing a military division from one place to another is much more difficult than managing a few(hundred) specialized bombers, fighters, satallites, nuclear submarines, ICBMs and other remotely controlled smart WMDs.

US alone can defeat and destroy both China and India together, so the importance of manpower is not a problem for them.
__________
UPDATE: -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060327/main2.htm
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...e-control.html

My understanding is that a few "wannabe" terrorists were trained by a CIA spnsored militant group, posing as real terrorists against USA. Then, they hijacked IC-814 to practise on their skills, that were to be used a few months later. The terrorists may have hijacked the American airliners, but they definitely lacked to skills to fly it the way we all saw on TVs. Whether or not our own politicians and some top-brass officials were aware of the truth - is definitely a matter of investigation.

http://911scholars.org/WhyQuestion911.html
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...ly-at-all.html
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...ag-terror.html
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...r-and-911.html
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com...wn-people.html

[mediator]

1. The point is I agree on the US part and that its a big bully. But helping and funding terrorism is also a terrorist act. Even if he's not doing it directly then also he's a terrorist coz he's funding it!

4. Its wrong to say that politicians know about the national secrets coz its only the military brass, president and few others who get to know of the details. "All" politicians r neva told about such secrets.
Ofcors national secrets i.e military details are not aired on tv. Do u want Indian military to show all its secrets and where all its bases r, so that it becomes easier for pakistani terrorists to penetrate? And then u say they r not doing enough!

5. There is a big difference between civilians and soldiers, and war and terrorism. What US did on iraq was most certainly an act of terrorism. But u can't compare the killing of soldiers there to the death of so many civilians in 9/11.

Neways about the "balance of power", i dont agree. How can u say "NK to keep Japan under check, and Japan to keep China under control." ? How can u say Japan keeps China under control, can u elaborate the "inside story"? Also why do they need to keep an ally like Japan under check? I guess its futile to even think about it for we'll be giving only our expert opinions on the matter!

6. Again its wat u think! I already said there's no shortage of people like us in this world where they can think diferently and a news can spread like fire!

Afghanistan an easier platform compared to Iraq with Jihadis kicking their a*ses all the time? How can u say that they have a good establishment in iraq also? Everyday their soldiers get killed, a chopper is shot per month. Neways I'm not so sure about the shock n awe. There own soldiers r getting frustrated/killed.So much for the shock n awe and I dont think they need the whole world to be converted into their bases to just keep an eye on Russia and China!

About ur understanding of CIA,IC-814....its just ur opinion. So no comments. Its nice to think like that. Everybody can have such thoughts and ponder over it endlessly! Can u explain why Osama and his men accepted the responsibility of 9/11 attack? Were "Osama" and his men trained by CIA and later let off like animals into the wild to get hunted and die?

Neways I think the discussion is getting deviated to a debate regarding the might of US. Lets try to stick to the topic!