*** Science Or God? ***

[rhitwick]

Richard Dawkins is amongst the most provocative thinkers of our times. The Oxford University geneticist has waged a blazing intellectual war on religion, calling for the rule of science and rationality. At the recent Jaipur Literature Festival, Dawkins spoke with Vineet Gill about why he prefers science over faith, whether he is an 'atheist fundamentalist', - and issues such as immortality:



What are your views on moderate religion today? You've earlier called this 'a seedbed for extremists'?

I have said thata¦I fear it's true that if children are taught, however moderately, that faith is a virtue, that you don't need evidence to believe something, then that paves the way for a minority to be extremists. Everybody has been indoctrinated with this view that if it's their faith, you can't argue with them. I think that is pernicious. If children are taught they don't need to defend their beliefs with evidence, that paves the way for extremisma¦the biggest damage religion does is indoctrinating and brainwashing children.

You believe passionately instead in science - but what happens when science gets it wrong?

Science doesn't actually claim to know all the truth. It works hard by getting closer and closer to the truth, but of course science learns by its mistakes and advances by disproving hypotheses and getting things wrong. One of the virtues of science is that it is prepared to change its mind when the evidence warrants it. Public sharing is an important part of science. No scientist will ever say - 'Oh, it's true for me, it may not be true for you.'

Science gets space for research and development - why can't we look at religion too as a living laboratory with people developing their thoughts, rather than just dismissing it?

It would be very nice to study religion in anthropological and psychological ways. By the way, i do think children need to be educated about religion. They just shouldn't be told you belong only to this or that religion. They should be told, there is this religion and that religion. And when you grow up, you may - or may not - choose to join any of those.

I liked this interview.
Read the complete one here

[sygeek]

^Yeah read it on TOI today. I think there was an article yesterday as well.

[jayantr7]

Originally Posted by cvvikram

Lemme ask one question...Who is all behind this science ????

Then who's behind God? You? C'mmon! If God can be created outta nowhere, then why can't the universe be.

When the elementary particles(eg. electron, proton) were discovered, God lovers said it's a piece of s*it and fake. Now when it has been proved, they say God made it. And the fate will be the same for to be proved particles like Higgs Boson.

(No offence meant against Theists)

[Anorion]

Yeah I have read most of Dawkins Books

River out of Eden
Blind Watchmaker
Climbing Mount Improbable
The God Delusion
The Selfish Gene (we were talking about memes in 8th standard lol, dont know what they would turn out to be)

I also signed up for his forums and used to be there, then I thought that his whole campaign against religion was either driven by publicity or with the same signs of fanaticism that he was decrying

Also, his DVD collections/ lecture publicity was pathetic

I still respect what his pop science publications have done and the genre it created, but not this campaign against god.

[doomgiver]

Originally Posted by mohiuddin

doesn't science suggest a 'god''s existence ??
what the hucking feck are you talking about??? gods existence? nothing in this universe hints at "gods' existence"
black hole clearly explained? AFAIK , our science couldn't explore inside the black hole cause, even lights cannot escape out of it.AFAIK.
i would LOVE to see your "almight, all-powerful" "god" survive one.
lol... u think science would reach an omega point? even if it reach that point,the cause would be the 'limit of our intelligence' thet we can't go beyond that level. ok, its 'future' thing, so lets the future to tell about that.
when we reach the omega point, we will have powers over the universe unimaginable to ANY science fiction author. energy/matter transmutation? check. instantaneous travel? check. temporal fiddling and playing with the timestream? check. these are just the tip of the iceberg. no one can imagine or even attempt to imagine what we would look like at that point. its like imagining infinity. now wrap your head about that.
what science would u believe to be so reliable? that science ,that told once, earth is static? then, comes sun is static....one universe theory? then, multiple universe theory? isn't these ''universe theory'' are of prediction on the basis of quantum mechanics??
at least its better than your "god" which still insists that earth is sitting on the backs of tortoises (and yes, it IS tortoises ALL the way down). lol, dont spout religious hyperbole and mumbo-jumbo. also, WE CHANGED OUR OUTLOOKS WITH REGARD TO THE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE DATA, WHILE THE LAZY B'TARDS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION TRIED TO STIFLE THE INFORMATION
again, explain human mind... please don't tell that bullshit that it the product of discharge from a complex neuron web..
explain to me the black hole, i'd love to hear what your "god" has to say about taht.
andyea yea i know big bang theory...that explained time, universe expansion. but what about 'before_big_bang' ?? if u say there was nothing, than explain 'nothing' by science.
hehe... smaller prticle...smaller particle...then again smaller particle.. what is the end then? no end? then explain that "NO END" thing.
why do you want an end?
u wanna say our body is not a miracle?
yes, its not a miracle. its a comparatively easy process. you just need a guy, a girl, and some free time.
then, i wanna ask have u heard a word called 'IDIOPATHIC' in medical science? no? google it.
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED DUE TO THALARON POISONING BEFORE ANYONE EVEN KNEW WHAT THALARON POISONING EVEN WAS.
alright, that was from a star trek novel, that is my answer.
please dont spout random jargon in an attempt to look/sound scientific, everyone can see that you dont have the required knowlegde/common sense to know that idiopathic symptoms are often mis-diagnosed or if genuine, they are immediately researched and sent for testing.
science is creating and solving confusions. both..........
and religion is just wallowing about in its mud filled rut.
ohoh..and about 'human-is-a-product-of-nature-eovution'..please don't tell me u (who said) believe what darwin discovered.
what darwin said was true. i believe it with all my faith
**peace**

answers, as always, in blue italics

[reddead]

i was at JLF recently and heard Dawkins for the first time..
and

Spoiler:

he turned me into a bloody ATHEIST !

[doomgiver]

ahahaha, that happens.
especially, if you believe in ancient, unscientific and intentionally convoluted cr@p called religion.

[Sudh4r]

God is real, unless declared integer.

[Neuron]

God is imaginary, which cannot be declared real.

[Sudh4r]

REAL :: god

Tada declared REAL

[Neuron]

lol,but it is only valid within the program/function where it is declared.By default 'god' isn't defined or is imaginary.

[Minion]

I am with god you can't do each and everything with science.My first question is where from single cell organism comes to earth and how do they learn to combine to form more complicated organism and how we are created, Have you felt sometime, You desperately want to do something but it is not possible on your part to do or is very hard 1st thought that come to your mind oh god please help after sometime you see what you thought was impossible is done I have many experience so my vote goes to god.

[Sudh4r]

@neuron thats an atheist quote. wat did u thought ?? i was making fun of 'THE GOD' .

[rhitwick]

@Minion, read biology books and revise ur 10th standard biology, specially the chapters on evolution, adaptation and cell division.

[Neuron]

Originally Posted by Sudh4r

@neuron thats an atheist quote. wat did u thought ?? i was making fun of 'THE GOD' .

Okey,i was just sayin'.

[Rishabh_sharma1990]

Let me share with you something -

The Prashna Upanishad (Sanskrit: प्रश्न उपनिषद्, Praśna Upaniṣad) is one of the earlier, "primary" Upanishads commented upon by Shankara. This text is a series of six questions and answers about the Ultimate Reality (Brahman), the vital force of Universe.

The first question is asked by Kabandhi concerned with the root cause of the universe.

The second question asked by Bhargava is concerned with the supremacy of vital Force of Life or Prana over other sense organs of human being.

The third question asked by Kausalya is concerned with the origin and functioning of Vital Force of Life.

The fourth question asked by Sauryayanee of Garga Gotra is related to Dream world of the sleeping person.

The fifth question is concerned with fruits one gets by meditating on holy syllable OM.

The sixth and last question is concerned with the being by whom all this known and unknown universe got created and who has sixteen vital things (kala) or who is called as Shodashakala Purusha.

3000 BC, when the human race used to roam in forests, our Rishis (seer-scientists), thought like that, not a child's play I suppose. It's not something that can be denied that easily. And remember that "Hinduism is not a religion, it is an intellectual system, a school of thought." And now please don't throw back any stupid points and argue. Put aside modern science for sometime and study what is actually contained in Vedic Literature( not what Max Muller idiotically translated), with an open mind. Till then at least don't deny it without any basis.

Danish nuclear physicist Niels Bohr who received the Nobel Prize in Physics, said "I go into the Upanishads to ask questions."

And you might be aware of the fact that Richard Dawkins himself, has stated that Hinduism & Buddhism offer much more sophisticated worldviews than any other religion.

[Faun]

^^Hinduism was never a religion. Hindu term itself is not native.

Those were the Vedic people.

[Minion]

Originally Posted by rhitwick

@Minion, read biology books and revise ur 10th standard biology, specially the chapters on evolution, adaptation and cell division.

I have read lots of biology in my school careers do you think you can create a organism If you can create then you are god.Basically almighty is something even science Can't explain.

If you don't believe in god its ok but you can't explain every thing with science LOL.

Originally Posted by rhitwick

@Minion, read biology books and revise ur 10th standard biology, specially the chapters on evolution, adaptation and cell division.

I have read lots of biology in my school careers do you think you can create a organism If you can create then you are god LOL.Basically almighty is something even science Can't explain.

If you don't believe in god its ok but you can't explain everything with science.

[rhitwick]

Originally Posted by Minion

I have read lots of biology in my school careers

And forgot...right?

do you think you can create a organism If you can create then you are god

Its done!
Check here Craig Venter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically almighty is something even science Can't explain.

And this is something which you mentioned for your assurance. You wanted yourself to be reminded that whatever happens you would not open your eyes.

If you don't believe in god its ok but you can't explain every thing with science LOL.

I won't...science will. Wait.

Searching for an explanation which backs itself with proper fact and proof is better than settling for answers such as "God wanted it that way"

[doomgiver]

Originally Posted by Minion

I am with god you can't do each and everything with science.My first question is where from single cell organism comes to earth and how do they learn to combine to form more complicated organism and how we are created, Have you felt sometime, You desperately want to do something but it is not possible on your part to do or is very hard 1st thought that come to your mind oh god please help after sometime you see what you thought was impossible is done I have many experience so my vote goes to god.

you dont have to "learn" to combine together.
look at algae. they stick together.
a single algae will not survive, it will be swept off by the currents of the river.
but a group of algae will give more resistance to the flow of water, increasing chances of survival.
its not something thats "learnt"
tell me, who taught you to walk with your feet?
WHY ARE YOU NOT WALKING ON YOUR HANDS???????

Originally Posted by Rishabh_sharma1990

Let me share with you something -

3000 BC, when the human race used to roam in forests, our Rishis (seer-scientists), thought like that, not a child's play I suppose. It's not something that can be denied that easily. And remember that "Hinduism is not a religion, it is an intellectual system, a school of thought." And now please don't throw back any stupid points and argue. Put aside modern science for sometime and study what is actually contained in Vedic Literature( not what Max Muller idiotically translated), with an open mind. Till then at least don't deny it without any basis.

Danish nuclear physicist Niels Bohr who received the Nobel Prize in Physics, said "I go into the Upanishads to ask questions."

And you might be aware of the fact that Richard Dawkins himself, has stated that Hinduism & Buddhism offer much more sophisticated worldviews than any other religion.

in 3000 BC, the sumerians had reached, and exceeded the climax of their civilization, and were on a sharp decline.
the ppl on the island of britain were building the stonehenge
those guys in americas were founding great cities.
the egyptians were building pyramids.
homers' tales were going to be written soon.
and the indus river civ was just putting up its first hamlets.

want to know more???
you are so self absorbed in praising he indian culture, that you dont even see that even greater civilizations existed before that time.

Originally Posted by Minion

I have read lots of biology in my school careers do you think you can create a organism If you can create then you are god.Basically almighty is something even science Can't explain.
science creates viruses and bacteria and siple single-cell organisms daily, to custom specification. we are gods. now just wait till we find those fake ones, we will shove this specially prepared "apple" down their throats.

If you don't believe in god its ok but you can't explain every thing with science LOL.
your god cant explain ANYTHING. LOL.

replies, as always, in blue italics

[Rishabh_sharma1990]

in 3000 BC, the sumerians had reached, and exceeded the climax of their civilization, and were on a sharp decline.
the ppl on the island of britain were building the stonehenge
those guys in americas were founding great cities.
the egyptians were building pyramids.
homers' tales were going to be written soon.
and the indus river civ was just putting up its first hamlets.

want to know more???
you are so self absorbed in praising he indian culture, that you dont even see that even greater civilizations existed before that time.

Building stonehenge, pyramids, great cities is a different thing, and asking the questions like those mentioned in Prashopnishada is another. Every big civilization in this world built cities, fought wars, conquered each other. But no one from Aryavart (Bharat / India) came outside to conquer anyone. India is known not for it's worldly achievements, but for the centuries of wisdom it has, which despite being attacked for thousands of years, still remains, and flourishing.

Swami Vivekananda puts it in very beautiful lines -

“Civilizations have arisen in other parts of the world. In ancient and modern times, wonderful ideas have been carried forward from one race to another...But mark you, my friends, it has been always with the blast of war trumpets and the march of embattled cohorts. Each idea had to be soaked in a deluge of blood..... Each word of power had to be followed by the groans of millions, by the wails of orphans, by the tears of widows. This, many other nations have taught; but India for thousands of years peacefully existed. Here activity prevailed when even Greece did not exist... Even earlier, when history has no record, and tradition dares not peer into the gloom of that intense past, even from until now, ideas after ideas have marched out from her, but every word has been spoken with a blessing behind it and peace before it. We, of all nations of the world, have never been a conquering race, and that blessing is on our head, and therefore we live...”

"Let foreigners come and flood the land with their armies, never mind. Up, India , and conquer the world with your spirituality!"(Complete Works, Vol. 3, p. 284).

You cannot imagine the interest the world is showing in India and Indian things. Especially in developing nations like Brazil ,the desire to learn Indian religion, yoga, dance, music, cuisine, and so on is terrible. You can safely say that there are at least 500 yoga schools in Brazil alone. Then there is a mad rush for yoga in the United States , United Kingdom , and so on. But in India ? We hate ourselves. We decry our History. We hate our Science and Technology and want to imitate Americans and British.

"Why are we, as a nation so obsessed with foreign things? Is it a legacy of our colonial years? We want foreign television sets. We want foreign shirts. We want foreign technology. Why this obsession with everything imported?"
Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam

And after all it was not about how old who is. As always, deviating from the topic has been the agenda in this debate. You took just one point from the post which you could answer. My point was that no one that time thought as deeply as Vedic Rishis, about Universe, Consciousness, and had such tremendous wisdom. We had the biggest universities in the world, Nalanda and Takshila, which were burning for almost a year after being destroyed by barbaric Islamists.
Topics like Astronomy, Metaphysics, Theology and Law, Medical Science, Astrophysics, Surgery had been taught in India even before the coming of Britishers (Souce: Prof. Dharampal's Lifetime Research).

Beautiful Tree - Indigenous Indian Education in Eighteenth Century

But perhaps, you closed mind will not allow you to accept anything beyond your beliefs. You will always try to prove everything false, because of the brainwashing about Indian Technology and Science you all have been going through since long.

[rhitwick]

I was reading this novel "Genesis Secret". Its on a conspiracy theory but today I came across this National Geographic article on some of the baselines of teh novel. Now I'm really excited!

Its about Gobekli Tepe. World's oldest temple. How old? Well its 11,600 years old.

Few excerpts from the article,

Known as Göbekli Tepe (pronounced Guh-behk-LEE TEH-peh), the site is vaguely reminiscent of Stonehenge, except that Göbekli Tepe was built much earlier and is made not from roughly hewn blocks but from cleanly carved limestone pillars splashed with bas-reliefs of animals—a cavalcade of gazelles, snakes, foxes, scorpions, and ferocious wild boars. The assemblage was built some 11,600 years ago, seven millennia before the Great Pyramid of Giza. It contains the oldest known temple. Indeed, Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known example of monumental architecture—the first structure human beings put together that was bigger and more complicated than a hut. When these pillars were erected, so far as we know, nothing of comparable scale existed in the world.

At the time of Göbekli Tepe's construction much of the human race lived in small nomadic bands that survived by foraging for plants and hunting wild animals. Construction of the site would have required more people coming together in one place than had likely occurred before. Amazingly, the temple's builders were able to cut, shape, and transport 16-ton stones hundreds of feet despite having no wheels or beasts of burden. The pilgrims who came to Göbekli Tepe lived in a world without writing, metal, or pottery; to those approaching the temple from below, its pillars must have loomed overhead like rigid giants, the animals on the stones shivering in the firelight—emissaries from a spiritual world that the human mind may have only begun to envision.

Archaeologists are still excavating Göbekli Tepe and debating its meaning. What they do know is that the site is the most significant in a volley of unexpected findings that have overturned earlier ideas about our species' deep past. Just 20 years ago most researchers believed they knew the time, place, and rough sequence of the Neolithic Revolution—the critical transition that resulted in the birth of agriculture, taking Homo sapiens from scattered groups of hunter-gatherers to farming villages and from there to technologically sophisticated societies with great temples and towers and kings and priests who directed the labor of their subjects and recorded their feats in written form. But in recent years multiple new discoveries, Göbekli Tepe preeminent among them, have begun forcing archaeologists to reconsider.

These are amazing, aren't they?!!!

Read the whole article here

As it seems, even before the Abrahammic religion (Muslim, Christ, Zoroastrianism) or others (Hindu, Boudh...etc) people needed to worship. Researchers soon might just uncover the facts what and why did they worship?

[eggman]

^^That's cool. Is the novel based on half base facts or it's based on scientific facts?

[rhitwick]

The novel has a disclaimer that apart from the plot all are facts.

[Anish]

@Rhitwick: Thats amazing I've never heard of that. Thanks for sharing bro. So, the result of this research would favor the existence of God I suppose.

Originally Posted by Minion

do you think you can create a organism If you can create then you are god

You must first read Urey-Miller hypothesis - class 10 biology I suppose

[doomgiver]

Originally Posted by Rishabh_sharma1990

Building stonehenge, pyramids, great cities is a different thing, and asking the questions like those mentioned in Prashopnishada is another. Every big civilization in this world built cities, fought wars, conquered each other. But no one from Aryavart (Bharat / India) came outside to conquer anyone.

well, you think that building a effing HUEG structure is just a piddling thing?
no one from bharat built any building of note.
everyone came to india and raped the country, and what did we do? we ran to the hills, we ran for our lives.

er, what culture? spit piss and **** in public? social customs? blindly hero worshipping anyone of fair skin and treating those less than fair as slaves?

i'd rather have a few pillars of crumbling marble rather than this $hithole.

Swami Vivekananda puts it in very beautiful lines -


You cannot imagine the interest the world is showing in India and Indian things. Especially in developing nations like Brazil ,the desire to learn Indian religion, yoga, dance, music, cuisine, and so on is terrible. You can safely say that there are at least 500 yoga schools in Brazil alone. Then there is a mad rush for yoga in the United States , United Kingdom , and so on. But in India ? We hate ourselves. We decry our History. We hate our Science and Technology and want to imitate Americans and British.

copypasta warning :

You cannot imagine the interest we are showing in the west. our desire to learn foreign excercises, dance, music, cuisine, practices and so on is terrible (removed religion, as anyone changing their religion gets torn up by rabid radicals). You can safely say that there are at least 500 dance schools in delhi alone. Then there is a mad rush for foreign things in here. But in USA ? they hate themselves. We decry our History. We hate our Science and Technology and culture and want to imitate indians and blacks.


And after all it was not about how old who is. As always, deviating from the topic has been the agenda in this debate. You took just one point from the post which you could answer. My point was that no one that time thought as deeply as Vedic Rishis, about Universe, Consciousness, and had such tremendous wisdom. We had the biggest universities in the world, Nalanda and Takshila, which were burning for almost a year after being destroyed by barbaric Islamists.
Topics like Astronomy, Metaphysics, Theology and Law, Medical Science, Astrophysics, Surgery had been taught in India even before the coming of Britishers (Souce: Prof. Dharampal's Lifetime Research).

well, what good did all that do?
imagine most of the dinosaurs were HYPERUBEROMGWTFBBQ intelligent, had awesome culture, and were terribly polite and non violent, then suddenly some furry mammals got their litte furry paws on laser cannons...... now tell me, what good will all that culture and "sipping tea with pinky sticking out" do???

Beautiful Tree - Indigenous Indian Education in Eighteenth Century

But perhaps, you closed mind will not allow you to accept anything beyond your beliefs. You will always try to prove everything false, because of the brainwashing about Indian Technology and Science you all have been going through since long.

perhaps your one-sided views arise from your closeted upbringing (nothing wrong with that, except, if you build a impenetrable shell to keep in your candle-light, you miss out on the bright sun shining outside)

[rhitwick]

Originally Posted by Anish

@Rhitwick: Thats amazing I've never heard of that. Thanks for sharing bro. So, the result of this research would favor the existence of God I suppose.

Favor? Can't say.

They found temple and trying to understand why it was made when men even weren't used to live in caves and weren't used to come together to do any work.

Why they needed to build a temple that is the question? How would it favor in proving God's existence I've no idea.

[Anish]

^^I presumed may be,they built it for their gods.
And who knows? May be its not built by the humans at all!!

[Rishabh_sharma1990]

no one from bharat built any building of note.

That is probably the funniest thing I've ever read. Go anywhere in India, especially in South India, to update your knowledge, then come back. There is no architecture in the world that can be compared to (and there is no sense in comparing huge pyramids with meticulously crafted architectures. They both have their own significance) South India temples like of RajaRaja temples, Meenakshi Temple, Ajanta Caves, Khajuraho and so on, the list is Huge! I hope you are not living with tribals..

everyone came to india and raped the country, and what did we do? we ran to the hills, we ran for our lives.

Who ran for lives? Maharana Pratap, Who fought ruthlessly till his last breath against Akbar?? Or Rani of Jhansi, who despite of being a women, showed the height of courage? Or those millions of Patriots who fought for the independence including Bhagat Singh, Rajguru? Are you talking about them?

what culture? spit piss and **** in public? social customs? blindly hero worshipping anyone of fair skin and treating those less than fair as slaves?

These are civic problems, and can be solved unless people like you come and blame it on religion.. I hope you do not treat anyone as slave..

i'd rather have a few pillars of crumbling marble rather than this $hithole.

Thanks for showing me your intellectual level, I'd rather debate with somebody with guts of writing...

We hate our Science and Technology and culture and want to imitate indians and blacks.

Very good, I expected no less..

well, what good did all that do?
imagine most of the dinosaurs were HYPERUBEROMGWTFBBQ intelligent, had awesome culture, and were terribly polite and non violent, then suddenly some furry mammals got their litte furry paws on laser cannons...... now tell me, what good will all that culture and "sipping tea with pinky sticking out" do???

What do you want to say? Comparing Hindus to DINOSAURS??
Take some rest man!

perhaps your one-sided views arise from your closeted upbringing (nothing wrong with that, except, if you build a impenetrable shell to keep in your candle-light, you miss out on the bright sun shining outside)

Don't be so desperate bro, find some debatable content and come back

[Neuron]

Originally Posted by Anish

^^I presumed may be,they built it for their gods.
And who knows? May be its not built by the humans at all!!

Ancient aliens.