AGAINST RESERVATION IN IITs

[The Conqueror]

There's a good reason why IITs are not world class.
That's simply because they reserve 50% of their seats for underprivileged. While Harvard/Yale or other world class institutions look for the best brains with matching aptitude unlike JEE where they filter talent on the basis of PCM. Why compromise on MERIT? Give the underprivileged financial or moral support - but reservations and compromise on low cut off is simply UNFAIR.

I have a strong passion and equally well aptitude for computer science. But I don't like Chemistry. Why should I know preparation of organic compounds if I want to do programming. From IIT" Holisitic development of all skills" That translates to jack of all master of none.

It's time to fight for the right.

[soumo27]

Yea, I definitely agree with you. But it's not the fault of The IIT's, you see. They are forced to apply rules pertaining to reservations of the under-privileged, as per the laws laid by the SC. So as a matter of fact, not only the IIT's; But also, each and every Institutions suffer.

[Liverpool_fan]

Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen.
Same with the education system. And you are in school, probably the finest education phase in India, simple to say you've not seen much.
No one gives a damn about talent, or innovations here, and that is not going to change. You have to dig your own path.

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by soumo27

Yea, I definitely agree with you. But it's not the fault of The IIT's, you see. They are forced to apply rules pertaining to reservations of the under-privileged, as per the laws laid by the SC.

There is no mention of a low-cut off reservation. Reservation is okay, but compromise on MERIT is not fair. See the cut off for this year's IITJEE. A huge difference for marks required for GE vs Other Castes. Do you feel it's fair?

Originally Posted by Liverpool_fan

Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen.
Same with the education system. And you are in school, probably the finest education phase in India, simple to say you've not seen much.
No one gives a damn about talent, or innovations here, and that is not going to change. You have to dig your own path.

I thought we are in democracy?
See the news now, a fight against corruption yielded worse results. This is worse than dictatorship.

[Liverpool_fan]

Originally Posted by The Conqueror

See the news now, a fight against corruption yielded worse results. This is worse than dictatorship.

We are in a democracy but most of our population is uneducated, backward, their means of living are medieval, "poisoned" with pointless "values" and systems, as well as the fact that they lack basic needs of life. So democracy in urban scope wouldn't work here.
In any case, democracy is a myth really, after all whoever you vote for, the government wins.

[nims11]

ask me(and many other like me), what is FRUSTRATION. missing IIT JEE by 5 marks is of course painful but to see people under reservation category qualiying IITJEE with 20-30 marks less than me(even more for STs) makes me cry.

[asingh]

We live in open socialism basically. And eye-wash the world -- "worlds biggest democracy". But forget to mention "worlds most corrupt country too". Which starts top down.

[MetalheadGautham]

lol I can completely associate with you there. Was in the same kind of position (chemistry hater, computer lover and got my IIT dreams mothered by bad criteria for selection (no computer paper in jee wtf) and reservation two years back. Now I'm in some crap college doing my 3rd year of CSE and the situation's not changed much. Subjects are STILL often irrelevant, while relevant stuff are seldom taught.

But there is one thing I can tell you from observing what kind of people end up where from their college days: Only those with REAL talent and REAL BRAINS that understand stuff, not just memorize random data to score random 90% marks or get 9-point GPAs survive in the end.

Even if you're in an average college, with average marks, as long as you maintain interest in the subject, research deep into a field you like and come out with awesome projects that'll leave pure non-geek nerds from IITs speechless, you're gonna do well in the end, even if the start is not as good. Just ensure that you have the internet by your side 24/7 and keep learning something "useful" in your free time. Do internships/in-plant training during your summer breaks.

[nims11]

i have no problems when reservation is given to those who really deserve it but that's not happening. the richer reservation class get better education and take away the piece of cake that is intended for the poors of that class.

[jayantr7]

yeah. I'm also an IIT aspirant. I'm interested in Computer and Physics but also have be a master in Chemistry to get into it. But we can't do anything... IIT and MIT/Harvard/Stanford cannot be compared though

[abhijangda]

Reservation should be for those who are poor, like in OBC we have Non-Creamy Layer and Creamy Layer. Non-Creamy Layer gets reservation because their income is less than a certain level. Similar, law should be in other categories. In, IITs we have 51.5% reservation more than half, so we can say that only less than half students in IITs are world class.

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by MetalheadGautham

lol I can completely associate with you there. Was in the same kind of position (chemistry hater, computer lover and got my IIT dreams mothered by bad criteria for selection (no computer paper in jee wtf) and reservation two years back. Now I'm in some crap college doing my 3rd year of CSE and the situation's not changed much. Subjects are STILL often irrelevant, while relevant stuff are seldom taught.

But there is one thing I can tell you from observing what kind of people end up where from their college days: Only those with REAL talent and REAL BRAINS that understand stuff, not just memorize random data to score random 90% marks or get 9-point GPAs survive in the end.

Even if you're in an average college, with average marks, as long as you maintain interest in the subject, research deep into a field you like and come out with awesome projects that'll leave pure non-geek nerds from IITs speechless, you're gonna do well in the end, even if the start is not as good. Just ensure that you have the internet by your side 24/7 and keep learning something "useful" in your free time. Do internships/in-plant training during your summer breaks.

This. You are correct brother, but IIT has 'brand' tag and a prestige associated with it. But on the other hand, as this is being debated in other thread about IIIT-H having a well updated CS syllabus. So I think its not worth burning the midnight oil for brand name's sake.
I think if Aryabhatta had lived in this era, I bet he would not have been able to unleash his creative potential.

I can safely say that those who get such AIRs in JEE are actually stunted brains.

[thetechfreak]

I agree with this. But we cant do anything

Originally Posted by Liverpool_fan

Pointless to fight for. Nothing will happen.

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by mysticjr7

yeah. I'm also an IIT aspirant. I'm interested in Computer and Physics but also have be a master in Chemistry to get into it. But we can't do anything... IIT and MIT/Harvard/Stanford cannot be compared though

They(everyone) thinks its world class which is just an illusion.

Originally Posted by thetechfreak

I agree with this. But we cant do anything

Originally Posted by abhijangda

Reservation should be for those who are poor, like in OBC we have Non-Creamy Layer and Creamy Layer. Non-Creamy Layer gets reservation because their income is less than a certain level. Similar, law should be in other categories. In, IITs we have 51.5% reservation more than half, so we can say that only less than half students in IITs are world class.

Non creamy layer should be given financial support but they should prove their worth by Merit.

[Sarath]

OP says give the underpriveleged money or a helping hand. Which is what the politicians do during elections?

Reservations were drafted with the constitution to do just one thing. Balance the society.

Giving knowledge helps generations to come and pulls them out of poverty. I have witnessed it only recently that how it is helping the underprivileged; although I too like you guys feels jealous about how they have a low cut off score.

Also the IITs main focus has always been to produce brains that can uplift the country and society. Not to be world class in itself.
Although that is what they have set out to do the implementation is more accurately seen in the IIT like institutes of China.

Originally Posted by asingh

We live in open socialism basically. And eye-wash the world -- "worlds biggest democracy". But forget to mention "worlds most corrupt country too". Which starts top down.

We are not the worlds most corrupt. That would be disastrous.

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Sarath

OP says give the underpriveleged money or a helping hand. Which is what the politicians do during elections?

Reservations were drafted with the constitution to do just one thing. Balance the society.

Also the IITs main focus has always been to produce brains that can uplift the country and society. Not to be world class in itself.

I don't think unfair cutoff's would balance the society. Read the comment by nims11, how would you feel in his position? Is this called balancing? No compromise should be made on MERIT.
What about the injustice faced by those who belong to GE Category? Go to any institution, an average GE student would have more trouble getting admission than a one from underprivileged with less marks/merit. AND BTW, the reservation was meant to be just for a few years

[Sarath]

That aint true. If a guy comes in who is rich you can just put a case on him and he is out of the college. Same goes with NRI quota in many colleges. Its easier to just get in through that but if anyone complains hes gotta leave the college and forget the 10+L donation he just made.

Just that no one complains as it is troublesome. Its just easier to troll in forums.

To put it simply: Take out reservations and at the turn of the generation you will see slavery and bonded labour return.

Originally Posted by The Conqueror

I don't think unfair cutoff's would balance the society. Read the comment by nims11, how would you feel in his position? Is this called balancing? No compromise should be made on MERIT.
What about the injustice faced by those who belong to GE Category? Go to any institution, an average GE student would have more trouble getting admission than a one from underprivileged with less marks/merit. AND BTW, the reservation was meant to be just for a few years

Err that is what the definition of reservation is: Make it easier for the underprivileged to come up. They have lower cutoffs based on the number of applicants in that category. The SC/ST have the lowest cutoffs. I used to call them "comical" and a "joke being played on our lives". But coming into college and seeing the ground reality all that seemed good fodder for gossip.

And God only knows when reservation will die. Its almost indistinguishable with political propaganda now.

[sygeek]

If the education system was this worst in other countries, we'd be saying hundreds of protests daily to a point that a change is encountered. The problem is we want the change but do almost nothing to implement it. However if a person comes to a point of protest and free speech, we are prevented from it. Sometimes even the media claims a rightful person to be wrong, when they don't fuzzing know what the other person has been through.
Is desh ka kya hoga *sigh*.

[Liverpool_fan]

Originally Posted by Sarath

That aint true. If a guy comes in who is rich you can just put a case on him and he is out of the college. Same goes with NRI quota in many colleges. Its easier to just get in through that but if anyone complains hes gotta leave the college and forget the 10+L donation he just made.

Just that no one complains as it is troublesome. Its just easier to troll in forums.

To put it simply: Take out reservations and at the turn of the generation you will see slavery and bonded labour return.

You are speaking as if slavery and bonded labour doesn't exist. It still does, and reservation does nothing for them.

No one is against reservation but the way it is implemented. Implementation should be on the basis of economic plus social basis. A person who lives in Delhi having his dad working as a government servant or private multinational doesn't deserve reservation just on the basis that they happen to have an SC certificate. Neither does giving further reservation in jobs among people who have already availed reservation or some kind of affirmative action.
Secondly the approach should be of quality education. Just giving them a seat will do no good to anyone if they are not able to handle the burden either.
Approach should be to bring on enough facilities that the repressed classes are able to ably compete with the other sections of the society. That can be done by providing free books and other materials, scholarships for coaching/training, and ensuring quality education up to 10+2. After that, a certain level of affirmative action will suffice.
Difficult to implement? Yes. But possible. But it will earn no votes so nothing will happen.

Personally I am more concerned with lack of quality education rather than reservation. More institutes providing quality education with classy infrastructure, every one wins.

[nims11]

Originally Posted by Liverpool_fan

Approach should be to bring on enough facilities that the repressed classes are able to ably compete with the other sections of the society. That can be done by providing free books and other materials, scholarships for coaching/training, and ensuring quality education up to 10+2. After that, a certain level of affirmative action will suffice.

i totally agree.

i also heard from my cousin that people getting admission through reservation face discrimination. is that true?

[Sarath]

Reservation is based on economical + social basis. I have seen the criteria. Its different for different people. The cut offs and such. Its just difficult to find every guy and put a ceiling for him. I mean you know our country. We have more castes and sub castes than you and I can imagine and comprehend.
In fact the people who had reservation a few years (decades?) ago no longer have it coz they have come out of the need for it. I think some protests took place last time. I cant remember.

What you are asking for is point to point accurate implementation of the reservation system which umm is I dont know should be ideally possible but ground reality is always far different from whats on paper.

Actually the underprivileged are not even interested in studying as far as I have seen. Most of them need to be begged and brought to school and then told later that even in college you guys will get admission and stuff.

I think they handle the burden well. Come on. Engineering and medicine is fine. Studying advance avionics and all that rocket science stuff well thats difficult.

If you start discussing about every policy that hasnt been implemented properly in our country then that will lead to a situation similar to a DDOS attack on the forum.

[nims11]

btw my family can have OBC status in jharkhand

but dad didnt apply for it.

Originally Posted by Sarath

In fact the people who had reservation a few years (decades?) ago no longer have it coz they have come out of the need for it. I think some protests took place last time. I cant remember.

the vaishyas or something like that recently protested for being removed from OBC

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by Sarath

Engineering and medicine is fine. .

I do not agree. If you give admission for medicine to a person who does not deserve it - you are destroying the world. Why, you would ask? Think again.
A career in medicine is not a joke. Doctor has a responsibility to treat his patients. If doctor is not having proficient skills, how can you expect satisfactory health services?
Now on engineering, if those without dedication and casuals are selected then it will lead to poor design/engineering of products that will affect consumers at large.

So, all admissions should be on fixed merit.

Actually the underprivileged are not even interested in studying as far as I have seen. Most of them need to be begged and brought to school and then told later that even in college you guys will get admission and stuff.

Then why force them to study? We have talented individuals in queue.

Originally Posted by Sarath

If you start discussing about every policy that hasnt been implemented properly in our country then that will lead to a situation similar to a DDOS attack on the forum.

My friend, this is democracy. If it has not been implemented properly does not mean it should remain as it is.

[The Sorcerer]

No1 dares to think beyond IIT?

[Liverpool_fan]

Originally Posted by The Sorcerer

No1 dares to think beyond IIT?

There is an IIPT?

[The Conqueror]

Originally Posted by The Sorcerer

No1 dares to think beyond IIT?

The point is not simply restricted to IITs. It applies to every educational institution in India.

[Sarath]

Originally Posted by The Sorcerer

No1 dares to think beyond IIT?

lol thats true. If you are not in IIT then I am sure you guys are pretty annoyed too when our parents go all: "you know Mr.xyz uncle, yeah they have a son your age studying in IIT then he'll go to IIM. Amazing.
[Me thinking: are you trying to tell me that I suck. (Worst part, I cant say anything to it either)]
You can substitute "xyz uncle" & "son" with any random person but you are bound to have heard that.

[mohityadavx]

Oh! What a fuss u ppl have made over here. Do any1 of u even know that u can't just go there and say i am an OBC give me seat via reservation there are certain criteria:-

1) Annual income from all sources < 4.5lakh

2) Ur parent should not be V.V.I.Ps.- President, Vice-President, Judges of the Supreme Court and of the High Courts etc. or Government or PSU employees of Central or State-
or

In military, parents, either of whom is in the rank of Colonel and above.

or

Families owns agriculture land having (i) ‘irrigated land’, more than 85% of the statutory ceiling area or (ii) The rule of exclusion will not apply if the land holding of a family is exclusively unirrigated.

Now this shows how financially strong these ppl are

[Liverpool_fan]

Originally Posted by The Conqueror

I do not agree. If you give admission for medicine to a person who does not deserve it - you are destroying the world. Why, you would ask? Think again.
A career in medicine is not a joke. Doctor has a responsibility to treat his patients. If doctor is not having proficient skills, how can you expect satisfactory health services?
Now on engineering, if those without dedication and casuals are selected then it will lead to poor design/engineering of products that will affect consumers at large.

So, all admissions should be on fixed merit.

While I agree with the point of basic merit. However the job of a course is to make a doctor out of a person rather than just who's the best coached candidate and select the cream. Those who will never have the skills of a proper doctor, should never be able to pass out anyway if your system is right.
Same is applicable with Engineers.
I will agree to your point in job level though.

Then why force them to study? We have talented individuals in queue.

No friend, just because some few people have been born in lower income family, Why should their misfortune continue and just due to the blindness of their parents, should be be continued to remain in the misfortune forever and never get the opportunity to actually compete with economically stronger people who can afford the luxury of coaching and being tutored to success?
In effect that would be like "reserving" seats to already privileged candidates.
Help to the underprivileged is a must, whatever you say.

[Sarath]

Both of you above thanks for bringing out proper points.

As for medicine. Trust me the passing criteria are so stringent that I have seen people reeling and buckling under the stress. Even if someone gets an admission getting the certificate is a BIG nail that needs either a big hammer or a lot of hammering. Plus you are under the risk of losing your right to practice at any point of time if you are deemed incapable. Last time I checked I never saw that happening to any other professional course.

Also to put it simply instead of having a hundred super strong mutant humans as the army its better to have ten thousand normal strong men in the army.