Vista - WGA 20+ Apps Harvesting the Users Data - Where is Privacy ?

[rprotocol]

Dear Friends,

What you people feel about this ? take a look at this article and please give your comments.

Are you using Windows Vista? Then you might as well know that the licensed operating system installed on your machine is harvesting a healthy volume of information for Microsoft. In this context, a program such as the Windows Genuine Advantage is the last of your concerns. In fact, in excess of 20 Windows Vista features and services are hard at work collecting and transmitting your personal data to the Redmond company.

Microsoft makes no secret about the fact that Windows Vista is gathering information. End users have little to say, and no real choice in the matter. The company does provide both a Windows Vista Privacy Statement and references within the End User License Agreement for the operating system. Combined, the resources paint the big picture over the extent of Microsoft's end user data harvest via Vista.

Reading Between the EULA Lines

Together with Windows Vista, Microsoft also provides a set of Internet-based services, for which it has reserved full control, including alteration and cancellation at any given time. The Internet-based services in Vista "coincidentally" connect to Microsoft and to "service provider
computer systems." Depending on the specific service, users may or may not receive a separate notification of the fact that their data is being collected and shared. The only way to prevent this is to know the specific services and features involved and to either switch them off or not use them.

The alternative? Well, it's written in the Vista license agreement. "By using these features, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you."

The Redmond company emphasized numerous times the fact that all information collected is not used to identify or contact users. But could it? Oh yes! All you have to know is that Microsoft could come knocking on your door as soon as you boot Windows Vista for the first time if you consider the system’s computer information harvested. Microsoft will get your "Internet protocol address, the type of operating system, browser and name and version of the software you are using, and the language code of the device where you installed the software." But all they really need is your IP address.

What's Covered in the Vista License?

Windows Update, Web
Content, Digital Certificates, Auto Root Update, Windows Media Digital Rights Management, Windows Media Player, Malicious Software Removal/Clean On Upgrade, Network Connectivity Status Icon, Windows Time Service, and the IPv6 Network Address Translation (NAT) Traversal service (Teredo) are the features and services that collect and deliver data to Microsoft from Windows Vista. By using any of these items, you agree to share your information with the Redmond Company. Microsoft says that users have the possibility to disable or not use the features and services altogether. But at the same time Windows update is crucial to the security of Windows Vista, so turning it off is not really an option, is it?

Windows Vista will contact Microsoft to get the right hardware drivers, to provide web-based "clip art, templates, training, assistance and Appshelp," to access digital software certificates designed "confirm
the identity of Internet users sending X.509 standard encrypted information" and to refresh the catalog with trusted certificate authorities. Of course that the Windows Vista Digital Rights Management could not miss from a list of services that contact Microsoft on a regular basis. If you want access to protected content, you will also have to let the Windows Media Digital Rights Management talk home. Windows Media Player in Vista for example, will look for codecs, new versions and local online music services.

The Malicious Software Removal tool will report straight to Microsoft with both the findings of your computer scan, but also any potential errors. Also, in an effort to enable the transition to IPv6 from IPv4, "by default standard Internet Protocol information will be sent to the Teredo service at
Microsoft at regular intervals."

Had Enough? I Didn't Think So!

Microsoft has an additional collection of 47 Windows Vista features and services that collect user data. However, not all phone home and report to Microsoft. Although the data collection process is generalized across the list, user information is also processed and kept on the local machine, leaving just approximately 50% of the items to both harvest data and contact Microsoft. Still, Microsoft underlined the fact that the list provided under the Windows Vista Privacy Statement is by no means exhaustive, nor does it apply to all the company's websites, services and products.

Activation, Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP), Device Manager, Driver Protection, Dynamic Update, Event Viewer, File Association Web Service, Games Folder, Error Reporting for Handwriting Recognition, Input Method Editor (IME), Installation Improvement Program, Internet Printing, Internet Protocol version 6 Network Address Translation Traversal, Network Awareness (somewhat), Parental Controls, Peer Name Resolution Service, Plug and Play, Plug and Play Extensions, Program Compatibility Assistant, Program Properties—Compatibility Tab, Program Compatibility Wizard, Properties, Registration, Rights Management Services (RMS) Client, Update Root Certificates, Windows Control Panel, Windows Help, Windows Mail (only with Windows Live Mail, Hotmail, or MSN Mail) and Windows Problem Reporting are the main features and services in Windows Vista that collect and transmit user data to Microsoft.

This extensive enumeration is not a complete illustration of all the sources in Windows Vista that Microsoft uses to gather end user data. However, it is more than sufficient to raise serious issues regarding user privacy. The Redmond company has adopted a very transparent position when it comes to the information being collected from its users. But privacy, much in the same manner as virtualization, is not mature enough and not sufficiently enforced through legislation. Microsoft itself is one of the principal contributors to the creation of a universal user privacy model.

The activation process will give the company product key information together with a "hardware hash, which is a non-unique number generated from the computer's hardware configuration" but no personal information. The Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP) is optional, and designed to improve software quality. Via the Device Manager, Microsoft has access to all the information related to your system configuration in order to provide the adequate drivers. Similarly, Dynamic Update offers your computer's hardware info to Microsoft for compatible drivers.

Event Viewer data is collected every time the users access the Event Log Online Help link. By using the File Association Web Service, Microsoft will receive a list with the file name extensions. Metadata related to the games that you have installed in Vista also finds its way to Microsoft. The Error Reporting for Handwriting Recognition will only report to Microsoft if the user expressly desires it to. Through IME Word Registration, Microsoft will receive Word registration reports. Users have to choose to participate in the Installation Improvement Program before any data is sent over at Microsof.

Ever used a print server hosted by Microsoft? Then the company collected your data through Internet Printing. Network Awareness is in a league of its own. It does not premeditatedly store of send directly information to Microsoft, but it makes data available to other services involving network connectivity, and that do access the Redmond company. Via Parental Controls, not only you but also Microsoft will monitor all the visited URLs of your offspring.

Hashes of your Peer Name tied to your IP address are published and periodically refreshed on a Microsoft server, courtesy of the Peer Name Resolution Service. Every time you install a Plug and Play device, you tell Microsoft about it in order to get the necessary device drivers. The same is the case for PnP-X enabled device, only that Windows Update is more actively involved in this case.

The Program Compatibility Assistant is designed to work together with the Microsoft Error Reporting Service, to highlight to Microsoft potential incompatibility errors. For every example of compatibility settings via the Compatibility tab, Microsoft receives an error report. The Program Compatibility Wizard deals with similar issues related to application incompatibility. File properties are sent to Microsoft only with the item that they are associated with.

You can also volunteer your name, email address, country and even address to Microsoft through the registration process. A service such as the Rights Management Services (RMS) Client can only function in conjunction with your email address.

All the queries entered into the Search box included in the Windows Vista Control Panel will be sent to Microsoft with your consent. The Help Experience Improvement Program also collects and sends information to Microsoft. As does Windows Mail when the users access Windows Live Mail, Hotmail, or MSN Mail. And the Windows Problem Reporting is a service with a self explanatory name.

But is this all? Not even by a long shot. Windows Genuine Advantage, Windows Defender, Support Services, Windows Media Center and Internet Explorer 7 all collect and transmit user data to Microsoft. Don't want them to? Then simply turn them off, or use alternative programs when possible or stop using some services altogether. Otherwise, when your consent is demanded, you can opt for NO.

What Happens to My Data?

Only God and Microsoft know the answer to that. And I have a feeling that God is going right now "Hey, don't get me involved in this! I have enough trouble as it is trying to find out the release date for Windows Vista Service Pack 1 and Windows Seven!"

Generally speaking, Microsoft is indeed transparent – up to a point – about how it will handle the data collected from your Vista machine. "The personal information we collect from you will be used by Microsoft and its controlled subsidiaries and affiliates to provide the service(s) or carry out the transaction(s) you have requested or authorized, and may also be used to request additional information on feedback that you provide about the product or service that you are using; to provide important notifications regarding the software; to improve the product or service, for example bug and survey form inquiries; or to provide you with advance notice of events or to tell you about new product releases," reads a fragment of the Windows Vista Privacy Statement.

But could Microsoft turn the data it has collected against you? Of course, what did you think? "Microsoft may disclose personal information about you if required to do so by law or in the good faith belief that such action is necessary to: (a) comply with the law or legal process served on Microsoft; (b) protect and defend the rights of Microsoft (including enforcement of our agreements); or (c) act in urgent circumstances to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, users of Microsoft software or services, or members of the public," reveals another excerpt.

And you thought that it was just you... and your Windows Vista. Looks like a love triangle to me... with Microsoft in the mix.

Source:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml

[MetalheadGautham]

do you think any of my personal information would be accessed if I lock vista completely from my partitions containing critical and sensitive data by making them EXT3 ? :? And if I reserve vista purely for gaming ?

[gxsaurav]

---Message edited by Goobi: Stay on topic. If you have nothing to say about it, no need to post.---

[MetalheadGautham]

doesn't linux connects to internet automatically on first boot to provide updates? doesn't it periodically checks ubuntu or any other server to provide automatic driver or kernel in turn sending a hardware profile? ubuntu does the same so Y just blame MS?
ubuntu is NOT linux :p
and linux distros don't access the net unless you PERMIT them to.
my distro never connects to the internet unless I specifically ask it to.

Besides, ubuntu just ASKS for data regarding updates. It downloads .tgz packages from a server and views them. But windows actually SUBMITS personal data to its servers from PCs.

[T159]

@gx
there are no rootkits to screw you in linux.
Even if u stop windows auto update it still uses some to get past the barrier of firewall.

[MetalheadGautham]

@gx:
your comment also shows that you never really understood how linux works. you seem to think like "if ubuntu does it, everyone does the same".

[infra_red_dude]

The problem is that nobody gives a damn to read EULA!!! So when someone finally decides to go thru it, he/she finds so many thing which they'd never haf agreed to otherwise.

doesn't linux connects to internet automatically on first boot to provide updates? doesn't it periodically checks ubuntu or any other server to provide automatic driver or kernel in turn sending a hardware profile? ubuntu does the same so Y just blame MS?
FIRST QUESTION: Why did Linux come into this thread??!!! Where has anyone mentioned anything about Linux?

Such posts only lead to flame war. You are provoking the Linux fanboys to turn this thread into an OS War.

Post reported...

[goobimama]

Gx, I warn you. The flaming has subsided for now, and you seem to be poised to fan it back to life.

As for the original article, I must say I am shocked. Maybe there should be some kind of simplified EULA available for those who don't have time.

[gxsaurav]

it wasn't flaming, it was comparision. I compared cos Ubuntu & Google r doing same thing but nobody accuses them.

MS clearly tells what info they r gathering & what they will not. There is nothing to be scared of, if U can trust gmail to store your private pics on google servers then Y this different tune with MS?

[T159]

^^They told us about the hidden rootkits too ? :rolleyes:

[MetalheadGautham]

it wasn't flaming, it was comparision. I compared cos Ubuntu & Google r doing same thing but nobody accuses them.

MS clearly tells what info they r gathering & what they will not. There is nothing to be scared of, if U can trust gmail to store your private pics on google servers then Y this different tune with MS?
As I said before, ubuntu is NOT doing the same thing. Please avoid comparing things you don't know about. Its dangerous and can provoke the target readers to counter attack you.

Gmail - well, their service IS a free email service. You NEED to store your data on their servers, because thats what the service IS all about.

You are trying to compare a service that downloads a few files from the internet and another service that just NEEDS to store your files, because you explictly intend to do that. These two are being compared to service from a company that takes your personal data and keeps it for no reason at all.

Please avoid bringing linux again and again into this.

[The_Devil_Himself]

also depends upon trust levels,google is far more a trusted company known for innovating unique concepts and strategies unlike MS which is often accused of plagiarism.There is also difference between an OS and a free search engine\email service,people PAY hard cash to buy windows OS and so they have a right to know whats going on and an option to control or say no to any of this activity.This is kind of cheating IMO,its like 'Ok,I wanna hide something?I will write a small booklet kind of EULA in the most difficult of english which isn't gonna be read by most of the people for one reason or more." Transparency is of prime importance to everyone.

after installing Vista,you have a pop-up kind of things asking 'you want to make windows experience better by sending anonymous usage data to Microsoft'?I dont know for sure how anonymous that is or they still send and receive data without my knowledge even if I said NO(which I invariably do).

[NucleusKore]

1. Read the EULA or take it to your lawyer
2. Don't use products that you feel violate your privacy unless you ENJOY it.

PERIOD

[amitava82]

Well, you don't BUY Windows. You get a license to use it. It's your problem if you do not read the license agreement. You don't agree with the agreement, don't use it.

[kumarmohit]

How does Windows know that the person it knows as me is actually me?

[MetalheadGautham]

Well, you don't BUY Windows. You get a license to use it. It's your problem if you do not read the license agreement. You don't agree with the agreement, don't use it.
strangely enough, these days I seem to care a LOT about EULAs.:D
it all started with me ditching windows and mirc.:cool:

[iMav]

A lot of people are talking about harvesting user data, do you guys know that the Govt/ of India has access to your call records, emails in some cases, sms messages?

@Metal: I am pretty sure you don't use these services, or do you?

Blackberry in India case anyone? And, that is just an example.

[MetalheadGautham]

A lot of people are talking about harvesting user data, do you guys know that the Govt/ of India has access to your call records, emails in some cases, sms messages?

@Metal: I am pretty sure you don't use these services, or do you?

Blackberry in India case anyone? And, that is just an example.
you expect that people trust Microsoft MORE than the Indian Government, where a slight issue can cause havoc in the country due to which it needs to act responsible ? The government is an entity formed by we the people of India. Its basically existing and doing things the way it does because of us. Microsoft on the other hand is a monopolistic and unethical USA based software company.

[FilledVoid]

I seriously don't understand whats the rant about. You have a choice. Either use Vista and accept the EULA which explicitly says.

"By using these features, you consent to the transmission of this information. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you."

Sheesh if you are so paranoid about the CIA files on your computer then don't install it already.

Microsoft on the other hand is a monopolistic and unethical USA based software company.

I'm sorry , but is there a problem with companies being based in USA now?

[MetalheadGautham]

I'm sorry , but is there a problem with companies being based in USA now?
Did I say that ?

I just mentioned more details. I guess I should have bolded the words monopolistic and unethical. :p

And yes, if the US government has any ties with microsoft, I better take back the above words. ;-)

[The_Devil_Himself]

I seriously don't understand whats the rant about. You have a choice. Either use Vista and accept the EULA which explicitly says.
you see it isn't as simple as it seems.Windows has a near monopoly in the OS field,and some people HAVE to use it,in such a case its the responsibility of the company to be as transparent as possible,and consumers fking demand transparency cus they are paying hard cash! don't you think? Its not like 'don't like the eula?,dont use vista',is it? The main concern is the interests of consumers cus they are what drive the whole industry.You know about european courts leving heavy fine on MS which seems outrageous when you first read them but they aren't,courts there are more public-centric unlike US and even our country where everything is governed by corporate interests.

and don't you think sending\receiving data even after I explicitly stated not to do that is violation of my privacy(Like I said I don't give a sh!t how anonymous it is) no matter what the eula said.

Sheesh if you are so paranoid about the CIA files on your computer then don't install it already.
hehe,nice point,I am least bit concerned about it cus if they ever analyse my data all they gonna get is millions of p0rn links.And some people even send their web searching data to companies which works for marketing companies and pay the users back(you listening amitava,:P) which again raises the question-why should MS(or even google for that matter) receive data free of cost which can be used commercially while other companies are ready to pay for that?

[FilledVoid]

you see it isn't as simple as it seems.
Yeah its quite simple.
Windows has a near monopoly in the OS field,and some people HAVE to use it,in such a case its the responsibility of the company to be as transparent as possible,and consumers fking demand transparency cus they are paying hard cash!
If you didn't understand you never paid for the software you only paid to use the software accroding to the terms listed in the EULA.
don't you think? Its not like 'don't like the eula?,dont use vista',is it?
Yes it eventually comes down to this.
The main concern is the interests of consumers cus they are what drive the whole industry.
As a consumer you are entitled to the freedom of choice to choose whatever platform you want. If you choose Microsoft then they will do whatever they want thats fair play according to the EULA. If you feel the EULA sucks then the answer is VERY SIMPLE. Don't use it. I'm not even going to quote the alternatives since I don't intend on making this a platform war again.
You know about european courts leving heavy fine on MS which seems outrageous when you first read them but they aren't,courts there are more public-centric unlike US and even our country where everything is governed by corporate interests.
Who ever said they weren't fair? Did you see the European courts suing Microsoft over the collection of data. Let me know when you find that. If you ever do. If the above was such a criminal offense may I ask why you haven't seen any Law Suits against the collection of data ? You possibly don't think that suddenly this forum came up with one huge discovery about this right?
hehe,nice point,I am least bit concerned about it cus if they ever analyse my data all they gonna get is millions of p0rn links.And some people even send their web searching data to companies which works for marketing companies and pay the users back(you listening amitava,:P) which again raises the question-why should MS(or even google for that matter) receive data free of cost which can be used commercially while other companies are ready to pay for that?
To which the above explanation still holds true. You don't like that then don't use it. Oh wait thats right you can't even think about changing. If you didn't notice Microsoft is not a non-profit organization there to facilitate your "p0rn0graphic" experience on the Web.

[amitava82]

Whats this anonymous and privacy crap? Did you forget the vary basic fact that "as soon as you connect to internet, you are no longer anonymous"? Here (http://www.indianagazette.com/index.php?id=24799&task=view&option=com_content&Itemid=2) is a little story. He was my class mate from Bangalore. So, companies like Google, Microsoft don't need to send your information to identify you. You are already identified when you decided to connect to internet.

[praka123]

already posted.Vi$ta (http://badwindowsvista.com) is made with the help of NSA guys of US military.now how can you claim your privacy? when monarch(M$) is ruling? there is more.Vi$ta is promoting DRM (http://defectivebydesign.org)(digital restrictions management).

no wonder vista flopped. :)

[kumarmohit]

you expect that people trust Microsoft MORE than the Indian Government, where a slight issue can cause havoc in the country due to which it needs to act responsible ? The government is an entity formed by we the people of India. Its basically existing and doing things the way it does because of us. Microsoft on the other hand is a monopolistic and unethical USA based software company.

By no means do I trust the foreign company more than Indian govt. But then Microsoft has not (As of Yet - And I have boldfaced it) had a case where it single me out if I used their certain service to say something negative about a "Donna" on a social networking site. I can not trust Google. They landed a guy in jail more like made it possible for GoI to put him in jail.

@Praka, That post would have made the point without the links as well.

[hullap]

already posted.Vi$ta (http://badwindowsvista.com) is made with the help of NSA guys of US military.now how can you claim your privacy? when monarch(M$) is ruling? there is more.Vi$ta is promoting DRM (http://defectivebydesign.org)(digital restrictions management).

no wonder vista flopped. :)
u are just starting the war again :mad:
im disappointed :(

[kalpik]

already posted.Vi$ta (http://badwindowsvista.com) is made with the help of NSA guys of US military.now how can you claim your privacy? when monarch(M$) is ruling? there is more.Vi$ta is promoting DRM (http://defectivebydesign.org)(digital restrictions management).

no wonder vista flopped. :)
Prakash, this is my SINCERE request to you. PLEASE stop posting various links and stop with all the name defaming! And what's with the "I hate M$" user title? Cant we behave like responsible human beings here? Fine! You hate microsoft, good for you! Dont use microsoft products! But at least please dont abuse their name! To be honest, i myself dont like MS products, but you never see me unnecessarily bad mouthing MS!

PLEASE STOP THIS. You are a senior member, i really dont like it when you get banned for such childish behaviour!

[praka123]

I can consider stopping.but first ,make sure imav and gxsourav too :)

[kalpik]

If you have any problems with any post of their's, please report them, rather than adding more fuel to the fire. I assure you that we moderators will take care of any unnecessary/abusive/provocative posts :)

[iMav]

People need to realize a simple fact, once using technology & internet, your privacy is no more. If you are so paranoid about privacy the you need to stop using cell phones as the SMS messages &phone calls you make aren't as private as you think. You need to stop using emails, cause neither are they private for the company. Blackberry stores all emails on their servers and has access to them, your mail can be sold for a price, a govt. can read your mails. We all know what happened to Adnan Patrlawala.

If you can be arrested for posting a simple hate message from a cyber cafe, what privacy are you talking about? And as filled-void pointed out any links to where MS has (mis)-used information gathered under EULA.

Google Desktop EULA terms: (http://desktop.google.com/eula.html) (Point #5)

Information collected by Google may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Google Inc. or its agents maintain facilities. By using Google Desktop you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country.

GMail's EULA: (http://www.google.com/mail/help/terms_of_use.html) (Point #7)
You do, however, agree that Google may monitor, edit or disclose your personal information, including the content of your emails, if required to do so in order to comply with any valid legal process or governmental request (such as a search warrant, subpoena, statute, or court order), or as otherwise provided in these Terms of Use and the Gmail Privacy Policy. Personal information collected by Google may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Google Inc. or its agents maintain facilities. By using Gmail, you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country.

OS X Leopard EULA: (http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx105.pdf) (PDF Document) (Point #4)
You agree that Apple and its subsidiaries may collect and use technical and related information, including but not limited to technical
information about your computer, system and application software, and peripherals, that is gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, product
support and other services to you (if any) related to the Apple Software, and to verify compliance with the terms of this Licit is in a form that does not personally identify you, to improve our products or to provide services or technologies to you.

Yahoo! Policy: (http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/) (Point #4)

You understand that through your use of the Service you consent to the collection and use (as set forth in the Privacy Policy) of this information, including the transfer of this information to the United States and/or other countries for storage, processing and use by Yahoo! and its affiliates.

The list can go on and on and on. Please understand that it is NOT only Microsoft. People here have a tendency to always go anti-MS for anything. Thread starter, what do you have to say about the above quoted EULAs? Why is that you have not posted ever since? Why do I smell something fishy about the thread starter?

[kumarmohit]

the thing is that true privacy is a compete joke.

offtopic : iMav itni reasearch karni hai to meri master's thesis ke liye bhi thodi kar de yaar!

[T159]

Any open source mail service...lolz.

[infra_red_dude]

already posted.Vi$ta (http://badwindowsvista.com) is made with the help of NSA guys of US military.now how can you claim your privacy? when monarch(M$) is ruling? there is more.Vi$ta is promoting DRM (http://defectivebydesign.org)(digital restrictions management).

no wonder vista flopped. :)
Post reported for crap links... Sincere request to mods to snip off the links...

[praka123]

I think EULA's necessarily are privacy stealing.you wont be using many Operating systems(pss pss ...khidkiyan) if you ever read their EULA's.

only licenses I have seen which are sane are Open Source Licenses like GPLv2/3 etc :)

[infra_red_dude]

People need to realize a simple fact, once using technology & internet, your privacy is no more. If you are so paranoid about privacy the you need to stop using cell phones as the SMS messages &phone calls you make aren't as private as you think. You need to stop using emails, cause neither are they private for the company. Blackberry stores all emails on their servers and has access to them, your mail can be sold for a price, a govt. can read your mails. We all know what happened to Adnan Patrlawala.

If you can be arrested for posting a simple hate message from a cyber cafe, what privacy are you talking about? And as filled-void pointed out any links to where MS has (mis)-used information gathered under EULA.

Google Desktop EULA terms: (http://desktop.google.com/eula.html) (Point #5)



GMail's EULA: (http://www.google.com/mail/help/terms_of_use.html) (Point #7)


OS X Leopard EULA: (http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx105.pdf) (PDF Document) (Point #4)


Yahoo! Policy: (http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/) (Point #4)



The list can go on and on and on. Please understand that it is NOT only Microsoft. People here have a tendency to always go anti-MS for anything. Thread starter, what do you have to say about the above quoted EULAs? Why is that you have not posted ever since? Why do I smell something fishy about the thread starter?
I'm not paying for Google/Yahoo services. I haf a choice. With MS I am paying for a license to use it. 90% of the desktop users use this OS. They haf no choice. So thats where the distinction lies. You just can't say I don't agree to the EULA, I won't use it. Its not as easy to do it as it sounds.

When anyone is a major player in the market they need to maintain a certain level of transparency to uphold their credibility. Why do you think people point to MS everytime something happens?

[iMav]

I'm not paying for Google/Yahoo services. I haf a choice. With MS I am paying for a license to use it. 90% of the desktop users use this OS. They haf no choice. So thats where the distinction lies. You just can't say I don't agree to the EULA, I won't use it. Its not as easy to do it as it sounds.

Infra, this comment from coming from you, is rather surprising, for the simple reason that you have very conveniently skipped the point I was making! I shall not be repeating the same thing again and again. Who says you don't have a choice. MS is NOT a charitable organization & is neither a NGO. So aren't Google or Yahoo or Blackberry.

Anyways I could not post the EULA of Blackberry here it is:

BlackBerry Internet Service End User Agreement (http://www.blackberry.com/legal/BIS_EUA/Americas/BIS%20EUA%20United%20States%20_English_%20062706%2 0_Global%20Version%20082505_%20cl.pdf)

BY SUBMITTING PERSONAL INFORMATION TO RIM PURSUANT TO THIS AGREEMENT, INCLUDING WITHOUT
LIMITATION YOUR NAME, ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE NUMBER, YOU CONSENT TO THE COLLECTION, PROCESSING,
TRANSMISSION, USE, RETENTION AND DISCLOSURE OF SUCH INFORMATION BY RIM AND ITS AFFILIATED
COMPANIES IN CANADA AND/OR THE UNITED STATES FOR ANY PURPOSES SET OUT IN RIM’S PRIVACY POLICY. IF
THIS LINK IS BROKEN, THE PRIVACY POLICY IS ALSO PROVIDED ON THE BIS WEBSITE. IN ADDITION, IF YOU USE
THE BIS TO ACCESS AND SEND E-MAIL FROM THIRD PARTY SERVICE PROVIDERS SUCH AS AMERICA ONLINE OR
YAHOO!, (“THIRD PARTY SERVICES”), YOU AUTHORIZE RIM TO USE AND STORE YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION
RELATING TO THE THIRD PARTY SERVICES FOR SO LONG AS RIM DEEMS NECESSARY (BUT NOT LONGER THAN AS
PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW), INCLUDING USER NAME, PASSWORD AND E-MAILS, FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE
OF PROVIDING E-MAIL FROM THE THIRD PARTY SERVICE PROVIDER TO YOU ON THE BIS SERVICE.

When anyone is a major player in the market they need to maintain a certain level of transparency to uphold their credibility. Why do you think people point to MS every time something happens? :lol: It's the simplest question ever! MS is an easy target! I posted OS X EULA, no one has any qualms what-soever about it. But, MS!

[krates]

^^^ +1 dude good research

[MetalheadGautham]

@iMav: who ever said M$ is the easy target ? They are the biggest fish in this ugly game, thats all.

And you still don't get the point. In some places, you need to collect data because it is required. But with M$ Window$ vi$ta it is different. There is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD ENOUGH REASON to collect such sensitive private data. When distros can live without sending private data, why can't micro$oft ?

[praka123]

^so true.but it is a ugly world you know.

[infra_red_dude]

Infra, this comment from coming from you, is rather surprising, for the simple reason that you have very conveniently skipped the point I was making! I shall not be repeating the same thing again and again. Who says you don't have a choice. MS is NOT a charitable organization & is neither a NGO. So aren't Google or Yahoo or Blackberry.
You missed what I pointed out. I shall quote your siggy: Its an MS world! Temme frankly, how many of us can "afford" not to use Windows? So when such a huge userbase is out there using your products, you should maintain transparency to a certain extent.

As for google/yahoo.. do you think its like 90% use gmail, 5% yahoomail and 5% hotmail? Thats not the case.. I hope you got my point.

:lol: It's the simplest question ever! MS is an easy target! I posted OS X EULA, no one has any qualms what-soever about it. But, MS!
While there is no denying the fact that MS is an easy target and that critics can never be satisfied no matter what, you do haf a moral responsiblity towards your consumers.

I agree whatever you said about OS X EULA. End of the day its all about the market share..

As with Blackberry, I fully agree with metalhead.. its your choice to haf your data stored in their servers. Concerned about privacy? Don't use the service. You can't simply say this for Windows. Its a microsoft world :D

One more question: Would it bother to you this much if the same case had been with Hotmail? For a moment lets just forget the word Vista in the original article and instead replace it with Hotmail.. would it haf made this big news? IMHO, NO. People would just pass it by and say.. wtf.. who cares? I'll use yahoo/gmail/aol/whatever mail. See the difference?

[MetalheadGautham]

^so true.but it is a ugly world you know.
ofcourse it is. You can trust nobody. Neither M$ nor apple. Neither Yahoo nor Google. Neither Indian Govt nor US Govt. You are on your own in this ugly world.

[T159]

^^let the metaaaaaaaal kill'em all :D
Hey did you check out the video in youtube videos section for you ?

[FilledVoid]

I'm not paying for Google/Yahoo services. I haf a choice. With MS I am paying for a license to use it. 90% of the desktop users use this OS. They haf no choice. So thats where the distinction lies. You just can't say I don't agree to the EULA, I won't use it. Its not as easy to do it as it sounds.

When anyone is a major player in the market they need to maintain a certain level of transparency to uphold their credibility. Why do you think people point to MS everytime something happens?

Unfortunately again you didnt pay for the product you paid for the usage fees which comes with stipulations. And as I said before yes they can say since you agreed to the terms they are entitled to the information. Do they extort your information absolutely not. Its the same reason why the Document Format wars started in the first place. For an Open Standard where a company couldn't lock it down.

As far as the level of credit maintained. Is there even a single case against Microsoft where it extracted information which does not pertain to their OS? Could anyone even prove this? If anyone could someone would have already.

Privacy is a joke people. If you believe that you are all that anonymous on the Net or in your little home. Hah you are pulling a fast one over yourself.

[iMav]

You missed what I pointed out. I shall quote your siggy: Its an MS world! Temme frankly, how many of us can "afford" not to use Windows? So when such a huge userbase is out there using your products, you should maintain transparency to a certain extent. So does that mean if you have a small user base, you can store and use user information. but, if you are bigger company you cannot? Doesn't make sense to me.



One more question: Would it bother to you this much if the same case had been with Hotmail? For a moment lets just forget the word Vista in the original article and instead replace it with Hotmail.. would it haf made this big news? IMHO, NO. People would just pass it by and say.. wtf.. who cares? I'll use yahoo/gmail/aol/whatever mail. See the difference?
Are you talking about members here? :rolleyes: besides I don't care. If Google can give my info to any govt. official, MS is nothing as compared to that.

[MetalheadGautham]

So does that mean if you have a small user base, you can store and use user information. but, if you are bigger company you cannot? Doesn't make sense to me.


Are you talking about members here? :rolleyes: besides I don't care. If Google can give my info to any govt. official, MS is nothing as compared to that.
I hope this makes sense to you:

There is no point in justifying stealing saying that everyone else does the same. Similarly, there is no point justifying leeching away personal data saying that everyone does the same

[infra_red_dude]

So does that mean if you have a small user base, you can store and use user information. but, if you are bigger company you cannot? Doesn't make sense to me.
No, I'm saying that a company on which so many users are dependent should be more responsible as the users will seldom haf a choice.

Are you talking about members here? :rolleyes: besides I don't care. If Google can give my info to any govt. official, MS is nothing as compared to that.
Exactly! So now you can say goodbye to gmail and switch over to Hotmail.. can't you? Can you do that in the case of Windows? Will your windows dependent software run on any other platform?

[FilledVoid]

But with M$ Window$ vi$ta it is different. There is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD ENOUGH REASON to collect such sensitive private data. When distros can live without sending private data, why can't micro$oft ?

How do you think they plan to track you down if you use a local wallas pirated copy? Again WHAT IS THIS PRIVATE SENSITIVE DATA they so call collect? Do you have some kind of source of that information. Please link your source.

[praka123]

In general ,if you dont have private datas which are critical DOES NOT mean world everywhere they dont have :| (no offense!).
privacy is so important companies corporations and individuals if you want to know.

how about someone leeching the private data of some window$ user who is preparing a .doc file which contains his research?(a small example).

[infra_red_dude]

Unfortunately again you didnt pay for the product you paid for the usage fees which comes with stipulations. And as I said before yes they can say since you agreed to the terms they are entitled to the information. Do they extort your information absolutely not. Its the same reason why the Document Format wars started in the first place. For an Open Standard where a company couldn't lock it down.

As far as the level of credit maintained. Is there even a single case against Microsoft where it extracted information which does not pertain to their OS? Could anyone even prove this? If anyone could someone would have already.

Privacy is a joke people. If you believe that you are all that anonymous on the Net or in your little home. Hah you are pulling a fast one over yourself.
The point here is that when the whole world is dependent on you, you should be a bit more responsible. Thats all.

Tomorrow, if MS (or any other company) edits the EULA and includes something like: Windows will send all your passwords to MS servers as part of "enhancing user experience" program.. Will your company, heavily dependent on windows agree to it? Do they haf a choice? They can't force their 100% windows-dependent client base to shift. Will the company not shut down? The number of corporates dependent on Windows is huge.. too huge!

And about privacy and the internet... I haf only thing to say: I know AntiVirus' will not gimme 100% protection. But I'm better off with an AV than without! The damage is surely far less.

[FilledVoid]

how about someone leeching the private data of some window$ user who is preparing a .doc file which contains his research?(a small example).
I personally will file a lawsuit if anyone can prove this right here now. And no I'm not joking. Show me a case with enough proof to show that some of your docs were leeched by Microsoft then Yes I will personally file multiple charges on Microsoft.

[praka123]

How can you find that they leeched?AFAIK window$ got so many things which are not OPEN to others(rootkits? which communicates with a central server?)

[MetalheadGautham]

The point here is that when the whole world is dependent on you, you should be a bit more responsible. Thats all.

Tomorrow, if MS (or any other company) edits the EULA and includes something like: Windows will send all your passwords to MS servers as part of "enhancing user experience" program.. Will your company, heavily dependent on windows agree to it? Do they haf a choice? They can't force their 100% windows-dependent client base to shift. Will the company not shut down? The number of corporates dependent on Windows is huge.. too huge!

And about privacy and the internet... I haf only thing to say: I know AntiVirus' will not gimme 100% protection. But I'm better off with an AV than without! The damage is surely far less.
+1. Rightly said. This reminds me of the old AT&T issue when they were forced to split. Though it was for a different reason, the situation is the same. When you have total control, act wisely.

[FilledVoid]

The point here is that when the whole world is dependent on you, you should be a bit more responsible. Thats all.
Don't you think you are assuming that Microsoft is being irresonsible with the data they so callingly collected?

Tomorrow, if MS (or any other company) edits the EULA and includes something like: Windows will send all your passwords to MS servers as part of "enhancing user experience" program.. Will your company, heavily dependent on windows agree to it? Do they haf a choice? They can't force their 100% windows-dependent client base to shift. Will the company not shut down? The number of corporates dependent on Windows is huge.. too huge!
Until they do the above, its just another scenario. Saying that they might leech data and they are leeching data is totally different. Can you show that the above passwords we're used for their own benefit? If so yes they are bloody liable. But otherwise this argument goes into the other fine print of the EULA as the rest of it is.

[praka123]

can you live in a warzone saying that shells are not yet been fired on you?
EULA is the same scenario esp with M$.

[infra_red_dude]

Don't you think you are assuming that Microsoft is being irresonsible with the data they so callingly collected?


Until they do the above, its just another scenario. Saying that they might leech data and they are leeching data is totally different. Can you show that the above passwords we're used for their own benefit? If so yes they are bloody liable. But otherwise this argument goes into the other fine print of the EULA as the rest of it is.
Can you point otherwise? Can you show me that the data collected by MS is NOT the password? or that MS is NOT selling our mail ids?

Lets say a person is given the keys to a locker with Rs.1 crore. What is the guarantee that he will not steal?!!??!

[MetalheadGautham]

can you live in a warzone saying that shells are not yet been fired on you?
EULA is the same scenario esp with M$.

Can you point otherwise? Can you show me that the data collected by MS is NOT the password? or that MS is NOT selling our mail ids?

Lets say a person is given the keys to a locker with Rs.1 crore. What is the guarantee that he will not steal?!!??!
Bang on target.
I too am talking with the better safe than sorry angle.
The actual problem goes a lot deeper. If companies like adobe continue to make software only for operating systems from companies like apple and micro$oft, I am sure the cyber world will be forever insecure. What we need is an open platform. We need stuff like Virtual Appliances from these companies, so that they can save lots of trouble making the same app for different OSes.

[FilledVoid]

Can you point otherwise? Can you show me that the data collected by MS is NOT the password? or that MS is NOT selling our mail ids?

Lets say a person is given the keys to a locker with Rs.1 crore. What is the guarantee that he will not steal?!!??!

Since you chose to answer the question with a question. Ill answer to the best of my knowledge. By theory I'm assuming that they don't because no one in this thread or otherwise have actually taken the time to link either the source of the claims or provide actual facts that would prove otherwise. Which makes this look as another Conspiracy theory at best. The odds of them doing that and no one having sued them till now including the Governments of various countries are VERY VERY low.

Lets say a person is given the keys to a locker with Rs.1 crore. What is the guarantee that he will not steal?!!??!
Finally an interesting question. First of all you should be whipped for not giving me those keys :D. Ok lame jokes aside. The problem here is you actually gave them the keys. Whether the alternatives are there or not is not Microsofts problem is it? Whose fault is it that software companies are lame enough to come up with Windows only crap.

You asked for some level of transparency / responsibility . I am asking you whether or not they have performed to that level? Is there actual factual data to prove otherwise? In other words Im saying since you gave the keys to person already, and the money is still there or at least you can't prove that its missing then is it right to blame the Company for stealing money which wasn't missing in the first place?

[quotye]can you live in a warzone saying that shells are not yet been fired on you?
EULA is the same scenario esp with M$.[/quote]
Excellent example. Can you declare war on a country because they have a tank or an F18?

I'm thinking of staying off this thread because something tells me I would be branded as some kind of Ambassador for MS when the truth is I find the claims about MS stealing personal (confidential) data a bit of a FUD.

[infra_red_dude]

You asked for some level of transparency / responsibility . I am asking you whether or not they have performed to that level? Is there actual factual data to prove otherwise? In other words Im saying since you gave the keys to person already, and the money is still there or at least you can't prove that its missing then is it right to blame the Company for stealing money which wasn't missing in the first place?
Exactly..the situation here is like.. you don't haf a choice but to give the keys and then you are never allowed to "look" into the locker. So you never know if the money is still there or not! But end of the day, its your money alright!

[MetalheadGautham]

Finally an interesting question. First of all you should be whipped for not giving me those keys :D. Ok lame jokes aside. The problem here is you actually gave them the keys. Whether the alternatives are there or not is not Microsofts problem is it? Whose fault is it that software companies are lame enough to come up with Windows only crap.
what if you had no choice but to give them the keys ?:?:
You asked for some level of transparency / responsibility . I am asking you whether or not they have performed to that level? Is there actual factual data to prove otherwise? In other words Im saying since you gave the keys to person already, and the money is still there or at least you can't prove that its missing then is it right to blame the Company for stealing money which wasn't missing in the first place?
Data is not money in the sense that it can be copied and reproduced. I know easily when the money is not there anymore, but data is always there. Its the copies of the data I am worried about. ;)

[iMav]

People seem to be talking of privacy and accusing a company of "leeching" sensitive data from their research documents, without an aorta of proof of any kind, but are absolutely fine with the EULA of other services/products. So much so, that a company which is known to provide info about individuals to the govt. and thereby killing any hope of privacy (if there is any) is not being blamed for anything at all.

[infra_red_dude]

People seem to be talking of privacy and accusing a company of "leeching" sensitive data from their research documents, without an aorta of proof of any kind, but are absolutely fine with the EULA of other services/products.
I dunno about others, but I am ABSOLUTELY NOT! Neither with MS nor with Google. MS is no satan and Google is no angel!

[goobimama]

Well in that case car manufacturers could choose to provide no safety measures, banks could choose to make all your financial details public, and hotels could install video cameras in every room. But can they do that? No. Cause these are rules that need to be in place to have any sanity in society. And this is more so in case of Microsoft cause let's face it, MS is a monopoly. Cause its not just the operating system that people choose, its also the third party applications that are crucial to businesses and home users alike and you cannot stop them from using those applications cause the Operating System is snooping around.

Now I have no idea what kind of data Microsoft is gathering and I'm sure they are keeping it private and confidential, but still, to have them gathering it without permission is a little scary. I personally like to help out by providing such information (I always submit error reports, and accept that customer something program that MSN messenger used to throw up) cause I know it helps the company make better software. But I would like to have the option of not doing this. And Microsoft should respect that. And so should Apple. And so should Google.

Thankfully I have Little Snitch installed telling me if an internal application is connecting with the outside world. Its safe for me to do criminal activities! :)

[kumarmohit]

[Good Fun]Alright... How many of you nancies, do not use outbound firewalls?[/Good Fun]

Seriously I do not like the idea of giving even a single bit of personally identifiable information unless it is not a matter of life, death or money (Where money only means banks) I do not purchase anything online, The only netbanking account i ever use is my running account where balance is only 1000 Rs. The salary cheque goes in the account and the money comes promptly out of th ATM. There is nothing in my emails which is personal. I prefer calling up ppl. (Take it from me, girls like it way better!) all my photographs are promptly burnt onto optical discs with HDD copies discarded. I do not say that I am all safe but I do know what my computer is doing on the internet and if I see some program communicating out of the system without my permission, I pormptly kill the process.

At the end of the day it boils down to your own ability to do intelligent computing!

[goobimama]

You may not. I may not. But there are a lot of people who do. So what about them? Being paranoid about security is justified in many cases.

[chandru.in]

Best way to avoid such confusions is not accepting EULA blindly. Read it well before accepting. If you are buying from OEM store read EULA and reject the h/w right away or ask for hardware in which software with spying features like this are not bundled.

If you are not able to understand the EULA (not all of us can understand legal language :( ) ask someone at the OEM store to explain and if they don't, say that you'll accept the h/w after someone else can explain the terms clearly to you.

Finallly, if you have to use a spyware embedded software, ensure that any sensitive data you have on your system cannot be accessed by it. If it is an OS itself, using an encrypted filesystem created with another trustworthy OS should help.

[gxsaurav]

PThe list can go on and on and on. Please understand that it is NOT only Microsoft. People here have a tendency to always go anti-MS for anything. Thread starter, what do you have to say about the above quoted EULAs? Why is that you have not posted ever since? Why do I smell something fishy about the thread starter?

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[kumarmohit]

If you are not able to understand the EULA (not all of us can understand legal language :( ) ask someone at the OEM store to explain and if they don't, say that you'll accept the h/w after someone else can explain the terms clearly to you.



Ow come on chandru my boy, do you really expeact this to happen in India where installation of any software, purchased ro not means Next next next finish

[praka123]

so those accepting EULA are happy to loss their privacy? even with OS too :rolleyes:

[FilledVoid]

Ow come on chandru my boy, do you really expeact this to happen in India where installation of any software, purchased ro not means Next next next finish

I think that most company outlets (Not your local assemblers) will actually explain it for you if you ask. But I might be wrong.

[kumarmohit]

Woah I got 2 laptops. In no case was there anyone to explain anything. Niether Compaq, Nor lenovo. I just wanted to check where they were installing some stuff, coz they were installing NIS 2006, and they were like, "Sir tension mat lo, yeh hamara kam hai hum dekh lenge!"

[chandru.in]

Ow come on chandru my boy, do you really expeact this to happen in India where installation of any software, purchased ro not means Next next next finish

It should happen. If not, the woes of software cosumers will not end. At least if people demand for explanation from OEMs we may finally be offered a choice in the OS (whatever one's choice may be) bundled with our hardware. I'm sure many users will not be happy with the terms of several proprietary EULAs if they read and understand them once.

And this next, next, next syndrome is not only in India, it is spread across the globe among all brain-washed software users.

Woah I got 2 laptops. In no case was there anyone to explain anything. Niether Compaq, Nor lenovo. I just wanted to check where they were installing some stuff, coz they were installing NIS 2006, and they were like, "Sir tension mat lo, yeh hamara kam hai hum dekh lenge!"

If I was in your place I'd have either got the explanation or moved out of the store rejecting their lappy. :smile:

[kumarmohit]

Why bother, I negotiated a good price. In fact the Lenovo came at 21000 only. Anywway I formatted both computers the moment I took them out of box at home!