Legality of Mac OS X TOS

[kumarmohit]

Guyz

I was going through the Indian Copyright Act and Indian Contracts Act. Look what I found.

Contrary to what you think, there is no crime in installing OS X on a PC if you strip it from a Mac you purchased. It is a breach of contract, a civil wrong, a wrong against a single entity as opposed to a crime which a wrong against the state.

I assume that you know the difference between the breach of contract and a crime.

When you strip OS X off a Mac and install it on a PC it is a breach of EULA, which is a contract.

It is not piracy as piracy is when you pay for one copy and install more than one copies or when you install it without paying for it. Since you wiped the copy from first place, and you paid for one copy only, you are in the realm of law even if you install it on non Apple hardware.

There is no provision in Indian copyrights Act which restricts how you use your copy. Take it like this. You purchase a CD from Sony music. They can not claim that if you play the CD in a player by Philips and not by Sony, it would be a breach of copyright. Contrary to what most people think, Indian laws do allow you to use the thing of which you get a license in the way you want.

There is difference between breach of EULA and piracy. Installing OSX on a PC after you have wiped it off from a Mac you purchased is a breach of EULA not Piracy.

Please remember that in India we are governed by Indian Contract Act and Indian Copyrights Act. Breach of contract is NOT a Crime in India.

In case you run OSX on a PC It would be covered under the Indian Contract Act. It is a civil wrong, a breach of contract, not a crime so technically it is not illegal.

The maximum Jobs can do is ask you for compensation. He can not get you tried for a crime. The term illegal means something which is contrary to the law. Breach of contract is not a crime. It is civil wrong. Since the law does allow you to use your copy the way you want, Apple can not regulate where you use your copy of OSX, provided that you are ready to pay the damages (Not fine - fine is paid to state not to the offended party. Damages are paid to the offended party in a civil case.) of loss. These damages can in no case be more than the price you paid for the said Mac.

Here text of the laws I base this argument upon.

http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/indiancontractact/indiancontractact.html
http://www.ircc.iitb.ac.in/webnew/Indian%20Copyright%20Act%201957.html

Please do not consider this the official word. I am still discussing the matter with my teachers at Campus Law center, University of Delhi. I would post the final part as soon as we reach to a definite legal conclusion.

Update 1: If you install OSX without purchasing a Mac, It is definitely a crime. The condition I discussed above assumes that you purchase a Mac and wipe OSX off that machine.


[Mod Edit: drgrudge]
Members need not get carried away by what was been debated. Just a reminder on our forum policies. So even if it's 'legal' according to Indian laws, we won't permit discussing/supporting the same. Hell, we don't even allow discussion on torrent sites/trackers and related news.

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install (like iMav) will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

[ray|raven]

^Wow,how much work did you do for this post dude?
IMHO, this deserves a seperate thread,Quite a few folks on the forums would love to read this!.
Make another thread dude.

Again, Wonderful work on the post.http://gigasmilies.googlepages.com/111.gif

[kumarmohit]

I would make another thread when I am fully assured by my teachers. :)

[drgrudge]

Disclaimer: I didn't read what was posted.


To hell with the Indian IT laws. You don't own this forum. If you want to be part of the community, you need to abide by the god damn rules we set here.

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install (like iMav) will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

Hope I'm clear on what I wanted to communicate.

[preshit.net]

Although I appreciate your efforts put into the research, I do not understand the point being made here.

According to you, it is not a crime if one purchases a Mac and wipe off the OS and installs it on a non-Apple hardware. But, why in the world would anyone install the OS on non-Apple hardware when he's actually paying for the excellent hardware that comes with it.

Almost everyone who buys the Mac, uses it as it is. There are many reasons that go into his decision of buying the Mac, great hardware design being one of them. I don't understand why would anyone strip off the OS in the first place.

[goobimama]

^Ok, temme this dude,
Are all the folks who install windows without buying it, commiting a crime?
Obviously!

[kumarmohit]

Hey! calm down grudgy. I am not saying that you should install it. I am discussing a legal scenario!

What is the topic of discussion here is the legality of OSX installation on non Apple hardware according to laws of India. We are not discussing how you do it.

I think that when someone posts actual steps to do it, I would be the first one to report it. Surely discussing if something is legal or not is not against the rules.

I am trying to analyze if the word illegal is the correct word in the case you used it.

for example Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal.

What I am saying here is that use of term illegal is incorrect. Instead of saying that it is illegal, you have to say that it is a breach of the Apple EULA.


Please do read what I posted.

@ Dark Lord

I see no point in ripping and installing it either. I hope you get wt I said now.

[drgrudge]

kumarmohit / others -
Members need not get carried away by what was been debated. Just a reminder on our forum policies. So even if it's 'legal' according to Indian laws, we won't permit discussing/supporting the same. Hell, we don't even allow discussion on torrent sites/trackers and related news.

Sure you can debate abt the legalities, otherwise I would've deleted/edited your posts. :p


Theoretically If Apple stops us from using its software on non Apple hardware, it can also say that you cannot use non Apple software on Apple hardware.You've interpreted it wrong. Apple says don't use my software (OS X) in non Apple Hardware. There's no restriction on the hardware. Say if Microsoft had restricted the use of Windows on Apple Hardware, then installing would be illegal. But there's no such restrictions. If you buy a Mac, you can run OS X, Windows and *nix.

[MetalheadGautham]

What I am saying here is that use of term illegal is incorrect. Instead of saying that it is illegal, you have to say that it is a breach of the Apple EULA.
And the apple EULA is yet to be challenged in an Indian court, as far as I can remember.
So no verdict on legality or illegality can be given right here.

@grudge: chill out man... I too didn't read what was posted, btw :D

Update: I just went through raaabo's siggy:
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/announcement.php?f=3

after combing the article in detail, I conclude that what grudge says is neither true nor false. Issues like this are not delt with there, and the admins need to rewrite or make a revision of that post to let us know what they want us to do in situations like these.
(chaddi shopping can wait:lol:)

[kumarmohit]

^^ Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.


You've interpreted it wrong. Apple says don't use my software (OS X) in non Apple Hardware. There's no restriction on the hardware. Say if Microsoft had restricted the use of Windows on Apple Hardware, then installing would be illegal. But there's no such restrictions. If you buy a Mac, you can run OS X, Windows and *nix.
@ grudge, I am not saying that Apple restricts you now, I am saying what if it does so in the future. What if Apple takes the dominant position in 10 years and then starts restricting it. (Considering the potential of the company, the performance of Apple and of Vista, I think that in ten years Apple be in a mood and market position to do so)

Similarly would it be a breach if I buy an X serve and install OS X from a Mac Pro on it and install the OS X server on the Mac Pro. I am on Apple hardware, yet the hardware is not the one i purchased it with.

Raaabo's rules restrict talking about something that is illegal. What we are trying to ascertain in this debate is if it is illegal in the first place.

I have already told that this scenario assumes that you purchased Mac and are therefore having a license to use OS X. In simpler terms, it is like I purchase a car by Maruti and Maruti gave me petrol of Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited. Can Maruti stop me if I take out the petrol from the car and put in the scooter instead!

I didnot exactly purchase the petrol it came included with the car. Just like OS X comes with the Mac. You do not exactly purchase OS X

[ray|raven]

@ grudge, I am not saying that Apple restricts you now, I am saying what if it does so in the future.

I'd love to see how many users would be left if apple says only apps made by apple can be used on Macs. :p

@grudge
How abt shiftin this into another thread?

[MetalheadGautham]

@kumarmohit: you got it all wrong buddy...

I just said that the issue is yet to be challenged before law.
There is no reason why it can't be held illegal.

We just need to see how the First Apple Inc. vs Hackintosh User(who has bought a legal copy of OSX) goes. Because only piracy is defined in the various cases we have seen so far. Not licences that restrict the usage of "digital commodity".

Till then, we are at Raaabo and FatBeing's discreation.

I'd love to see how many users would be left if apple says only apps made by apple can be used on Macs. :p

@grudge
How abt shiftin this into another thread?
nah... it looks realistic in this thread.
this discussion is more related to apple inc than all those questions on how to use xyz or where abc can be bought. Its a legal issue that attracts many heads.

[kumarmohit]

@kumarmohit: you got it all wrong buddy...

I just said that the issue is yet to be challenged before law.
There is no reason why it can't be held illegal.


I hate to reexplain so excuse the copy paste:

Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.


Till then, we are at Raaabo and FatBeing's discreation.


.

I guess that would be a great idea.

[MetalheadGautham]

I hate to reexplain so excuse the copy paste:

Exactly and as of now, there is no legal precedent which makes it possible for Apple to put this restriction.

Now, the basic principle of the common law (which is applicable in India) is that unless something is explicitly stated by the law as illegal or in any way contrary to the law, it is considered to be in harmony with the law and thus allowed.

Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.
you didn't read my next few lines did you ?
even I stated that only piracy is defined as Illegal by Indian Law.
such restriction of usage is not.
How many offices in India use avast home edition ? Quite a few do.
Have they ever been sued ?

[narangz]

Offtopic:
^^ In shameful misery? Did you yourself write that?

[MetalheadGautham]

I didnot exactly purchase the petrol it came included with the car. Just like OS X comes with the Mac. You do not exactly purchase OS X
you do purchase OSX. If you are switching from Tiger to Leopard that is.

Offtopic:
^^ In shameful misery? Did you yourself write that?
there is a reason for it.
I am ashamed and miserable because...
Personal Reasons I don't want to reveal.

[narangz]

Errrr... No idea about Mac but we do purchase Windows license along with laptops/desktops. We pay for the license which is included in the computer price.

@MHG- Ok buddy.

[kumarmohit]

you didn't read my next few lines did you ?
even I stated that only piracy is defined as Illegal by Indian Law.
such restriction of usage is not.
How many offices in India use avast home edition ? Quite a few do.
Have they ever been sued ?

What I am saying is that since the restriction is not defined by law, the basic principles of law say that we are allowed to do it. Law defines what is wrong, everything it does not say is wrong is inherently not legally wrong.

[aryayush]

Thanks for that! I'm sure it will be helpful to someone. :)

@kumarmohit,
I tend to agree with you. However, I have a few points here:
1. Like Preshit said, no one would ever want to uninstall Mac OS X from their Mac and install in on their PC. It just makes no sense;
2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;
3. Violation of the EULA is also a serious matter. Sure, it's not a crime, but it isn't the right thing to do either; and
4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.

[yash]

damn! why does all the awesome discussion happen when I'm sleeping?!!!
well anyways, I'm glad to know I can install my favourite OS on any system I use.

[ring_wraith]

4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.

+1 on all of that. I actually feel that the whole reason Apple offers such great products is because of how tightly the Hardware and Software tie up.

Anyways, coming back to the discussion at hand, in theory, as I've read on the site that started the whole Mac on PC movement, it is legal to install OSX on a PC by only 2 methods:

1) Buy a Mac, Wipe OSX off, and Install it wherever you may wish. This, as mentioned, is quite pointless. This method is also highly questionable.
2) Become an Apple Dev. One solid definite way to install OSX legally on a PC.

[kumarmohit]

@ aryaayush and ring_wraith

While i totally agree that there is not a great reason would anyone want to do it, we are debating what if someone actually does it.There are a number of people doing it and in India too. Where do they stand is what I am trying to decide and should people actually use the phrase Installing OS X on non apple hardware is illegal. I have high objection to usage of term illegal.

2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;

Buy a Mac, Wipe OSX off, and Install it wherever you may wish. This, as mentioned, is quite pointless. This method is also highly questionable.

And this is what my point is. As of now according to Indian law, it is in harmony with the law. When you break an agreement, you do not commit a crime, breach of contracts happens all the time. Consider the avast Home edition example.

And I just checked that Black Macbook is 68000 + taxes in Delhi. Comparing to the Dubai prices, does it become cheaper there?

damn! why does all the awesome discussion happen when I'm sleeping?!!!
Since we are in India and this is day time here, not the time to be asleep:)

well anyways, I'm glad to know I can install my favourite OS on any system I use.

Dont bother, it is still a crime unless you wipe it off the original Mac

[ring_wraith]

@kumarmohit I see what you mean, but you are on shaky grounds there.

[kumarmohit]

that is why i am trying to confirm it with teachers at my ex law college

[aryayush]

There are a number of people doing it and in India too. Where do they stand is what I am trying to decideYou do realise that the vast majority of these people you're referring to do not own Macs. And the few that are doing it even though they own a Mac do not wipe OS X off their Mac. So, IMHO, every single person doing it without Apple's official approval is doing it illegally. As you can see, this is in accordance with your theory too. :)

1) How to play subtitles with .mkv files ?? ( VLC or QT )If the subtitles are embedded, they'll play all by themselves. If they're not, you'll have to place the subtitle file in the same folder as the movie, make sure both files have exactly the same name and then launch the MKV file. Both QuickTime and VLC will automatically use the subtitle file. In VLC, you can also hit ⌘⇧O, enable "Load subtitles file:", hit 'Settings...' and select any subtitle file on your Mac and use it with any movie. No need to place them in the same folder and make sure they have the same name. I prefer QuickTime Player. :)

The AIR with SSD is not available in India at all.You place an order for it. It will take some time but you can buy it in India. You'll have to sell your house, of course. :p

[MetalheadGautham]

I tend to agree with you. However, I have a few points here:
1. Like Preshit said, no one would ever want to uninstall Mac OS X from their Mac and install in on their PC. It just makes no sense;
2. Even if you buy a Mac or Mac OS X, you cannot use the included disk to install it on a PC. You'll need to wade into murky waters for that, so I'm not sure how it could be considered legal;
3. Violation of the EULA is also a serious matter. Sure, it's not a crime, but it isn't the right thing to do either; and
4. It makes no sense to try installing Mac OS X onto a PC anyway. Mac OS X and Macs are designed to work best with each other and neither can be fully appreciated without the other. If you spend the time and effort into getting Mac OS X installed on a PC and then in maintaining it, you've already defeated the whole purpose of using Mac OS X. You're not supposed to have to go to all that trouble to use it. Ask ring_wraith, he has first hand experience.
1. Completely agree with you there.

2. You needn't. A Mac IS a PC. As long as I have the same configuration, there will be no problem.

3. Agreed again.

4. Again, a Mac IS a PC. If I buy a PC of the same configuration, there won't be any cooperation related problems between the PC and the OS. And the perpose of using Mac OSX may be ease of use to you, but most of us want it only for software like iLife.


And the breach of EULA issue has certain differences from the Avast Home Edition Case here:

Avast home is free of cost. They are giving you something for free, so you definitely need to use it only in the place(home) they want you to in the EULA. And they are not restricting the usage in any way. Indian laws too have commercial vs non commercial distinction. You can't use a home LPG cylinder in your hotel.

Apple case on the other hand is an entirely different case. Here, they are trying to force a monopolistic rule onto you. They want you to use their software ONLY on their hardware. So this particular case might be intresting to see if it reaches the court. Ofcource, newspapers and the common janatha will be too dumb to understand the heart of the issue, but it shouldn't be a problem in the Supreme Court.

Lets take medicine patents in India. The various life saving drugs have huge royalities assosiated with them, but the Govt of India allows their imitations to be sold cheap in India. The constitution is basically Anti-Monopolistic.

[aryayush]

2. You needn't. A Mac IS a PC. As long as I have the same configuration, there will be no problem.

...

4. Again, a Mac IS a PC. If I buy a PC of the same configuration, there won't be any cooperation related problems between the PC and the OS. And the perpose of using Mac OSX may be ease of use to you, but most of us want it only for software like iLife.You obviously speak without any experience at all in this area. I'm glad that you don't have any experience about this thing but certainly not that you still chose to refuse my statements, based on whims and opinions.

You cannot install Mac OS X on a PC using any of Apple's own disks. There is absolutely no way to do it. There are ways to install it on a PC, of course, but I won't even hint on how you do it here. Rest assured though that it does not involve the original Mac OS X install disk in any way.

As for not having issues with similarly configured PCs, you're wrong (again). Go to any of the hackint0sh related forums and you'll see how many problems people have and how people with similar problems and similar configurations cannot solve them with similar solutions. There are no tried and tested ways and the number of unsuccessful users who give up after a lot of effort is far higher than the number of people who become successful.

It's not only not easy, it's darn difficult. Even on almost exactly the same hardware, because no matter how similar the hardware, you can ever have the same motherboard.

iMav (or maybe it was gx_saurav) admitted in public once that he'd had to reinstall OS X seven times before he was successful. And even after that, he used to report strange issues that none of us actual Mac users have ever faced or even heard of. Of course, they blamed it all on the OS but we know the real cause of those issues.

That's why I asked you to ask ring_wraith, and he has even affirmed it for us on the previous page. He wanted to try Mac OS X before going out and buying an actual Mac. I told him not to, but he had his reasons to do it. I told him about the things that could, and would, go wrong and how it just won't be the Mac experience. He tried it anyway and he replied later that I was right. He's, of course, an amicable fellow so he was quick to admit it when he was wrong.

So ask him and you'll know.

Installing Mac OS X on a PC is no child's play. And it's the truth that even after you're successful (if you are), it's not even remotely the same as a Mac. And if it isn't, there's no point in it. Because a Mac is all about easy of use and rock solid integration and stability. You don't want it, don't buy a Mac or use Mac OS X. There are iLife replacements on Windows that do the same things. Sure, they do it in a half-assed way and are complicated, but then if you're the sort of person who uses a hackint0sh, you thrive on that sort of crap anyway.

Installing Mac OS X on a PC is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Because the exceptional circumstances that kumarmohit mentioned are just not practical. I can understand a Mac user wanting to install OS X on his PC too (which is, of course, illegal), but no Mac user would ever uninstall the OS from his Mac, obtain it through questionable means (because, come Hell or high water, the original disk won't do) and then try to install it on his PC. Who'd be an idiot enough to try that!


As for Apple's restricting Mac OS X from PCs being monopolistic or whatever, that's just sour grapes. Do you ***** when game developers restrict games from running on low-end machines? They know their software best and they don't think running it on those PCs will give you a satisfying experience. It's their decision to make. Who're you to question it? Do you complain when Sony Ericsson does not allow you to install their OS on other phones? Or when Hyundai wouldn't allow you install their engine into another car? Do you say, "I bought the parts. It's my wish what I do with them."

Please talk some sense. If you can't/won't buy a Mac, that's your problem. Why blame the company for their business practices, which are perfectly ethical, not any different from the norm and are in the best interests of their paying customers? I know Mac OS X is so darned awesome because it only has to run on a handful of configurations and I love that fact. I don't want Apple to screw up that arrangement. Who're you to object to it when the customers are loyally and happily buying those products, knowing their limitations, and are satisfied with them (and much more so than customers of other companies)?

Think about it. :)

[MetalheadGautham]

^^I just discussed legal issues there.

regarding the customer satisfaction point, I have no comments. Your comments sound inspirational to the ears of an Apple Fan, and hypocritic to the ears of a sceptic. So I don't want to comment there.

As for installing mac OS on a PC, I have read suffitient hackintosh websites.
I just said no external hack is needed to install mac OS on a properly configured PC.
Google for Hackintosh if you want to know what I mean.

Lets forget hackintosh and go to the legal part.

What we are discussing is if it can be illegal under Indian Law to legally buy a copy of Apple Inc's Macintosh OSX Leopard and install it on a Computer thats not manufactured by Apple.

Constitutional and Legal clauses are welcome to be shared here to validate points.



Installing Mac OS X on a PC is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Because the exceptional circumstances that kumarmohit mentioned are just not practical. I can understand a Mac user wanting to install OS X on his PC too (which is, of course, illegal), but no Mac user would ever uninstall the OS from his Mac, obtain it through questionable means (because, come Hell or high water, the original disk won't do) and then try to install it on his PC. Who'd be an idiot enough to try that!


an intresting situation he had described. What if I buy a cheap old second hand macmini and a high end Custom built Computer and removed mac osx from the former and installed it in the later ?

[aryayush]

I just said no external hack is needed to install mac OS on a properly configured PC.You mean to say that it is possible to install the install disk that came with my Mac into a "properly configured PC" and have OS X up and running in twenty minutes, just as if it were a Mac?

If that answer to that question is in the affirmative, then you're either mistaken or lying.

[MetalheadGautham]

one more small fact: the original apple os disc may not be usable to install mac on a pc after removing it from apple hardware, I agree, but making (modded)copies is definitely not illegal. If that was the case, nLite guys might have got sued long back by M$. Making a personal backup of a software disc is perfectly legal in most countries(especially India)

[aryayush]

an intresting situation he had described. What if I buy a cheap old second hand macmini and a high end Custom built Computer and removed mac osx from the former and installed it in the later ?Trust me, Mac OS X would perform much better on the Mini, compared to your eight-core PC.

[MetalheadGautham]

You mean to say that it is possible to install the install disk that came with my Mac into a "properly configured PC" and have OS X up and running in twenty minutes, just as if it were a Mac?

If that answer to that question is in the affirmative, then you're either mistaken or lying.
Wait for my PM with the link;)

[aryayush]

Sure. I'll have to read it tomorrow though. I'm way too sleepy today and am leaving for Kolkata tomorrow. :)

[MetalheadGautham]

Sure. I'll have to read it tomorrow though. I'm way too sleepy today and am leaving for Kolkata tomorrow. :)
PM sent, btw.

[aryayush]

You sent me two links and both of them require a custom (patched) install disk of Leopard. Like I said, you cannot install Mac OS X using any official DVD on a PC. It's impossible.

Now, why am I not surprised!

[MetalheadGautham]

You sent me two links and both of them require a custom (patched) install disk of Leopard. Like I said, you cannot install Mac OS X using any official DVD on a PC. It's impossible.

Now, why am I not surprised!
the links I sent you clearly stated that there was hardly anything extra in the custom DVDs.

And I too agree that the offitial DVD can't usually be used to install on a PC, but installing from a patched version while owning the legal version is not illegal. So from legal point of view, I can do nothing wrong.

[yash]

Trust me, Mac OS X would perform much better on the Mini, compared to your eight-core PC.
describe "better"

full featured but deathly slow? then yeah, it will run 'better' on the mac mini.

but for me, better means swift/fast and responsive.

[MetalheadGautham]

Trust me, Mac OS X would perform much better on the Mini, compared to your eight-core PC.
never saw this post of yours before...

so here is my reply:

how ? You think that a MacMini G2 bought for 2k can run Mac OS X better than an 8 core PC ?
Your point might be valid if al you want are offitial commercial support from apple.

But cases like mine are different.

I use Gautham OS II as my primary OS(don't ask me how I make it), windows vista for gaming and mac for timepass and iLife in this scenario. How can Leopard, resting in a custom virtual machine, be faster when on a MacMini G2 ?

[kumarmohit]

Let alone the hardware part, we are still to decide about if the usage of phrase "Installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illiegal" is correct.

Should it not be "breach of Apple EULA" instead of "illegal" considering that both are two different things.

Nad BTW MetalheadGautham, there was no MacMini G2 AFAIK. Minis started with Power 5 series processors.

[yash]

I downloaded the ipod reset utility they released today for the ipod shuffles. And in hopes of reviving my dead ipod shuffle, I plugged it in and clicked reset on the application. But shortly after, I got an error. So I just thought I'd try again. but this time, the process has been going on for a 'long time' and its just stuck at 'resetting ipod (Recovery mode) Do not disconnect' no lights on my ipod shuffle are blinking or turned on. it also warns me against disconnecting my ipod now.

[aryayush]

Glad to know you're having fun with it. :p

the links I sent you clearly stated that there was hardly anything extra in the custom DVDs.

And I too agree that the offitial DVD can't usually be used to install on a PCExactly. That's all I'm saying. I hate to have to discuss so much only to be proven right in the end. Why can't people just agree with me when I'm right! :p

never saw this post of yours before...

so here is my reply:

how ? You think that a MacMini G2 bought for 2k can run Mac OS X better than an 8 core PC ?
Your point might be valid if al you want are offitial commercial support from apple.

But cases like mine are different.

I use Gautham OS II as my primary OS(don't ask me how I make it), windows vista for gaming and mac for timepass and iLife in this scenario. How can Leopard, resting in a custom virtual machine, be faster when on a MacMini G2 ?1. I was, of course, talking about a current generation Mac Mini, the Core 2 Duo variety. And they never made G2 Minis anyway.

2. "Better" for me means running without any hassles and letting me do what I want it to do without having to keep troubleshooting it to keep it in running condition. By virtue of that, the Mini is better than any PC in the world.

[MetalheadGautham]

2. "Better" for me means running without any hassles and letting me do what I want it to do without having to keep troubleshooting it to keep it in running condition. By virtue of that, the Mini is better than any PC in the world.
thanks for your defination.
because for me, "Better" means total control and knowledge of what exactly is going on, along with raw but controlled power.
When did I ever say I am buying a PC ?
I might do an Apple thing and call my Custom Built Computer "Something Else"
And you might be intrested to know that when you have gone through every advantage/disadvantage and performance issue of the parts you buy, and have chosen the parts wisely, your Custom Built Computer will perform better than any other computer in the world, Alienware, Macintoshes, Dells, HP Pavalions and <insert name here> included.
As far as I am concerned, the macintosh mini is just yet another branded PC
There is hardly any difference between macs and other computers now that the "G" era is gone.

[drgrudge]

Ok, cleaned the Apple Thread moved the posts here. Edited the first post and going to post here again:

Members need not get carried away by what was been debated. Just a reminder on our forum policies. So even if it's 'legal' according to Indian laws, we won't permit discussing/supporting the same. Hell, we don't even allow discussion on torrent sites/trackers and related news.

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

[MetalheadGautham]

@ashwin: thankyou for going through the trouble to post these posts here in this thread.

ontopic:

you guys might want to browse through this link (http://lawmin.nic.in/coi.htm) if you want some solid statements :p

[gx_saurav]

Installing OS X in any other thing than a Mac or an iPhone is illegal. No discussions will be permitted. People who manage to install (like iMav) will not be supported (atleast via threads/posts in this forum).

Yo, we don't install it on the PC, we go to the nearest Apple store to test & use it.

[Gigacore]

time to install mac on my PC :D

[ring_wraith]

I hate to have to discuss so much only to be proven right in the end. Why can't people just agree with me when I'm right! :p


*Waves good-bye to all traces of Aayush's humility" :P

But seriously, those of you who know me will agree with me when I say that I am not one to advocate Apple or MS or anyone without a solid, valid reason. Therefore in this case, I must say that Aayush is indeed right.

There is one very simple reason for that. There is not one chance in a million that anyone on the face of this planet could possibly emulate the experience that Mr. Jobs ensures all his paying customers have.

Allow me to elaborate.

To the new Mac user, the most difficult part of the initial setup of their iMacs is to decide where they have to put it. Not kidding here. Once they do decide, all they have to do is plug it in, and off they go. Compare this to the average PC user, who has to wrestle with [probably] OS installs, incompatability issues, driver installation, update installation and whatchamacallit.

See the difference? In the former, the whole experience is completely seamless with no trace of a headache whatsoever while in the latter it is exactly the opposite. This is why it is impossible to recreate the Apple experience. From what I've gathered about the good people at Apple, their motto is that computing does not have to be a pain in the behind, and they do everything they can to stick to it.

Let's take this a step further, shall we? The above comparison is between a PC and a Mac, which is completely legal and expected. What about the PC user who has [foolishly] tried to recreate the Apple experience on his PC? He has to go through the sheerly irritating process of downloading a patched 4GB+ ISO on his [pathetic] 256kbps line, then attempting to install it only to be met by resounding failure. Then he takes his problem to an unofficial community, only to realize that there is no known solution to his problem. Let's assume that despite all these hurdles, he manages to get to that prized OS X desktop, only to realize that his sound, ethernet and USB drivers are missing. Finally, light dawns on him and he is forced to settle for the mediocrity that is Windows.

The above is my story. I learnt it the hard, hard, hard way. Heed my words, and you may not have to. The fact is, just by forcing yourself to go through what I went through you are losing out on what is a [I]very major part of the Apple experience.

[infra_red_dude]

From what I can understand we are debating about the correctness of the terms: illegal and piracy associated with installing Mac OS X on PC and NOT discussing about the situation or reasons why one would do that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am correct then the discussions involving Metalgautam, aayush and ring_wraith are pointless and not related to this thread in anyway.

[kumarmohit]

First of all thanks grudgy for moving the discussion here.

Next thing is that the matter is getting a bit more complicated, since the Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Act is also now in the picture as well.

Considering that OSX is not a RISC platform anymore and it is possible to (by whatever means ) install it on a PC, this locking thing can, in theory, be termed as a restrictive trade practice.Naturally people buy from Apple not coz they want its hardware but coz they want OS X. So if someone wants OS X, he has no option but to purchase Apple hardware, it can technically be termed as a restrictive trade practice.

(BTW how come grudgy this thread did not show in my subscriptions until I made this particular post, bug?)

One more thing, can you add the words "According to Indian Law" to the title considering that there are members of international community on the forum and we are actually discussing the matter with Indian law as a mainstay.

[ring_wraith]

From what I can understand we are debating about the correctness of the terms: illegal and piracy associated with installing Mac OS X on PC and NOT discussing about the situation or reasons why one would do that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am correct then the discussions involving Metalgautam, aayush and ring_wraith are pointless and not related to this thread in anyway.

I realize that, but I'm sure that this is not the first thread where the discussion has side-tracked. At least it still revolves around one central idea. Considering this, I considered it apt to continue posting on what I could voice my opinion on.

As a matter of fact, I would strongly recommend you and everyone else who does so to refrain from posting without contributing to the discussion at hand. We all are perfectly capable of realizing what and what not to post sans external nudging.

First of all thanks grudgy for moving the discussion here.

Next thing is that the matter is getting a bit more complicated, since the Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Act is also now in the picture as well.

Considering that OSX is not a RISC platform anymore and it is possible to (by whatever means ) install it on a PC, this locking thing can, in theory, be termed as a restrictive trade practice.Naturally people buy from Apple not coz they want its hardware but coz they want OS X. So if someone wants OS X, he has no option but to purchase Apple hardware, it can technically be termed as a restrictive trade practice.


Could you simplify that? :P We're not all law students.

[kumarmohit]

^^ I will try to make it simple but it would take a number of posts. Please bear with me.

First you have to answer me (I assume that you have a Mac- iMac, MD, MBP MBA. Macmini or mac pro watever) Why did you buy it? Was it because of the hardware only or was the main reason of your purchasing that you wanted OS X?

[MetalheadGautham]

From what I can understand we are debating about the correctness of the terms: illegal and piracy associated with installing Mac OS X on PC and NOT discussing about the situation or reasons why one would do that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am correct then the discussions involving Metalgautam, aayush and ring_wraith are pointless and not related to this thread in anyway.
its my fault.
we were actually discussing just "legal issues" relating to Mac OS X, but I asked grudge to move all these posts to a thread titled "The Legality of Mac OS X TOS". Better ask someone to fix my mistake:oops:

Next thing is that the matter is getting a bit more complicated, since the Monopolies and Restrictive Trade Practices Act is also now in the picture as well.

Considering that OSX is not a RISC platform anymore and it is possible to (by whatever means ) install it on a PC, this locking thing can, in theory, be termed as a restrictive trade practice.Naturally people buy from Apple not coz they want its hardware but coz they want OS X. So if someone wants OS X, he has no option but to purchase Apple hardware, it can technically be termed as a restrictive trade practice.
for a court's point of view, we need to first catch hold of a case very similar to this one and see how it went.

[drgrudge]

First you have to answer me (I assume that you have a Mac- iMac, MD, MBP MBA. Macmini or mac pro watever) Why did you buy it? Was it because of the hardware only or was the main reason of your purchasing that you wanted OS X?
Interesting question. Let me answer.

I bought a Mac for the following reasons : Design (if I hadn't bought a Mac, I would've owned a Sony Vaio), superior hardware and OS X in that order. Now that I've used a Mac for 6 months, I think I would want to own a {future} Mac for : Apps/OS X, Design and Superior hardware in that order.

[MetalheadGautham]

for the benifit of those having trouble with this monopolistic and restrictive trade practices act, I am posting the following linkd for your benifit:

1. Whole Act(pdf) (http://www.mca.gov.in/MinistryWebsite/dca/report/annualreport2005/CHAPTER4.pdf)

2. The act explained (http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/mrtpact/mrtpact.htm)

3. exemptions (http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/mrtpact/s32.htm) and more expemptions (http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/mrtpact/s3.htm)

4. defination of unfair trade practice (http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/mrtpact/s36a.htm)

5. presumption by the court as being "to the public intrest" (http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/mrtpact/s38.htm)

[ring_wraith]

^^ I will try to make it simple but it would take a number of posts. Please bear with me.

First you have to answer me (I assume that you have a Mac- iMac, MD, MBP MBA. Macmini or mac pro watever) Why did you buy it? Was it because of the hardware only or was the main reason of your purchasing that you wanted OS X?

If I ever bought a Mac, it would be mainly for the OS, then for the superior design. The Hardware itself is quite ordinary.

[MetalheadGautham]

If I ever bought a Mac, it would be mainly for the OS, then for the superior design. The Hardware itself is quite ordinary.
+1

in my case, it would be even more extreme. If I ever bought a mac, it would be for their few softwares that I find good. Their hardware and OS can never match the level of power and flexibility a personalised custom built computer(not PC) and a custom distro.

The problem, as often noted, is that the companies manufacturing softwares often neglect certain platforms in favour of others.

But back to topic, yes, a mac indeed looks like a white elephant to me.
Buying it just for its colour by paying a premium is out of question.
The only possible use for a mac is to "legally" run iLife and similar Mac exclusive apps that are face savers to the apple lineup.

[drgrudge]

The Hardware itself is quite ordinary.
Dude! I've had a Dell Inspiron 6400 for over 8 months and seen all the 'other' branded lappies (from Toshiba, HP, LG, Sony, etc..).

My MBP:

- does not creak when I close the lid
- the best screen ever. My LED powered screen pwns our 36" LCD TV also. :p
- has the best trackpad. I know trackpad gets 'smooth' and the buttons goes 'loose'. My MBP's trackpad is new as ever.
- motion and light sensors. Trust & believe me. I now can't live without them.
- good quality keys. My Dell keyboard key used to 'fade'. Frequently used keys smudge off in 3-4 months.
- My MBP in built speaker is best in class. It's better than the Altec Lancing powered HP Pavillion and 'DTS - Dolby Surround speakers' of Toshiba.
- I can go on.... but in the end, all I want to say is...

Mac does has a superior hardware. Don't confuse with config and 'superior' hardware.


And.. once a Mac user, always a Mac user. All my future PCs will be a Mac only. :twisted:

[MetalheadGautham]

^^as I said, thats the case for MacBooks. They offer a polishe hardware, but due to the lack of ability to build good books yourself, we can't concider macs easily in this arguement. How about getting a reply from a MacPro, MacMini or iMac user ?(mac pro is most "standardised" in configuration. so I welcome a mac pro user's reply.)

[kumarmohit]

The thing is that for most people, OS X is important than hardware itself. Though by no means is it ordinary.

But as Jobs himself said at the D conference with Bill gates, What is a mac? Its OSX in a pretty box but it is OSX.

Now assuming that most of the people want OSX and Apple has the capability to tweak it to perform equally well on non Apple hardware without having to go through as fundamental changes in the OS as would have been required if the Power PC version would have to be ported to X86 architecture. We can conclude that people have to buy Apple hardware because they want OS X which can be made to run on Non apple hardware very easily, Apple is following a restrictive trade practice.

If you want my software, you have to buy my hardware too. Why, because I have put in systems which make sure that it would not perform equally well elsewhere. TPM chip anyone, or wat is it EFI?

This can theoretically be considered a restrictive trade practice according to MRTP.

[ring_wraith]

Dude! I've had a Dell Inspiron 6400 for over 8 months and seen all the 'other' branded lappies (from Toshiba, HP, LG, Sony, etc..).

My MBP:

- does not creak when I close the lid
- the best screen ever. My LED powered screen pwns our 36" LCD TV also. :p
- has the best trackpad. I know trackpad gets 'smooth' and the buttons goes 'loose'. My MBP's trackpad is new as ever.
- motion and light sensors. Trust & believe me. I now can't live without them.
- good quality keys. My Dell keyboard key used to 'fade'. Frequently used keys smudge off in 3-4 months.
- My MBP in built speaker is best in class. It's better than the Altec Lancing powered HP Pavillion and 'DTS - Dolby Surround speakers' of Toshiba.
- I can go on.... but in the end, all I want to say is...

Mac does has a superior hardware. Don't confuse with config and 'superior' hardware.


And.. once a Mac user, always a Mac user. All my future PCs will be a Mac only. :twisted:

Everything you've mentioned fits into the design category, and I can't believe you forgot about the MagSafe adaptor.

Hardware here refers to what you have called the "config". Therefore, the hardware itself, is quite ordinary.

[legolas]

Everything you've mentioned fits into the design category, and I can't believe you forgot about the MagSafe adaptor.

Hardware here refers to what you have called the "config". Therefore, the hardware itself, is quite ordinary.
what drgrudge meant as "superior hardware" may be misunderstood, had he not mentioned. I dont have a Mac myself. But I have seen what drgrudge has mentioned on my friend's laptop. And they are indeed true and superior. I have to accept this. I have no issues terming it as superior hardware. A keyboard design, monitor design and mouse/track pad design is also hardware.

[gx_saurav]

Exactly. That's all I'm saying. I hate to have to discuss so much only to be proven right in the end. Why can't people just agree with me when I'm right


You are lucky that I am not taking part in these conversations. Don't get cocky.

2. "Better" for me means running without any hassles and letting me do what I want it to do without having to keep troubleshooting it to keep it in running condition.

Ya we are doing the same with Vista now.

By virtue of that, the Mini is better than any PC in the world.

Let me guess, You have never seen Shuttle XPC, right?

I might do an Apple thing and call my Custom Built Computer "Something Else"

I call my PC "Lab Workstation" or just "Lab" for short :D

superior hardware

Dell XPS, Apple Macbook, HP Pavilion all made by Quanta :D

If I ever bought a mac, it would be for their few softwares that I find good. Their hardware and OS can never match the level of power and flexibility a personalised custom built computer(not PC) and a custom distro.


+1, bang on target.

If you already have a Mac then there is no point wiping Mac OS X from the machine & installing it on a PC. You paid for the OS to be used on Mac machine. You want to use something on the PC then you have Vista or Linux waiting for you.

[ring_wraith]

what drgrudge meant as "superior hardware" may be misunderstood

True. We all have different ideas of what fits into hardware and what fits into design. In my book, Hardware refers to the CPU, RAM, HDD etc.

[legolas]

^ ^ unfortunately, the etc.. also includes monitor, keyboard and mouse, to my knowledge. anyway, I wouldn't want to continue to quibble over this issue. Sorry for the difference of opinion.

[drgrudge]

How about getting a reply from a MacPro, MacMini or iMac user ?(mac pro is most "standardised" in configuration. so I welcome a mac pro user's reply.)
I've a MBP and I love it. People who have Mac Pro (nepeker) or iMac (goobimama) will vouch for it and sing it's praise. The bottom line is almost all the Mac users are happy with their Mac, irrespective of what Mac hardware it's.

Everything you've mentioned fits into the design category, and I can't believe you forgot about the MagSafe adaptor.
Likewise there's this Apple Remote. I love AppleTV/Front Row. Like I've said I missed a quite a few. I can go on... don't want to waste my time and yours. :)

Hardware here refers to what you have called the "config". Therefore, the hardware itself, is quite ordinary.
Eh? Config? Who the hell do refer LED powered monitors in config? Does good trackpad comes in config? :lol: Don't get confused. Mac does have good design and superior hardware.

True. We all have different ideas of what fits into hardware and what fits into design. In my book, Hardware refers to the CPU, RAM, HDD etc.
Dude! While there's a thin, delicate line seperating design and superior hardware; trackpad, mouse, monitor, keyboard too come in hardware only.

[MetalheadGautham]

You are lucky that I am not taking part in these conversations. Don't get cocky.
he never understood what I was trying to say. He said installing OSX on a PC would get you into muddy waters, but actually, you are hardly doing anything. Take your own example, saurav. You yourself said that having a legal vista key and downloading a "customised" vista dvd from the net is not illegal. If you are right, ayyush is wrong.;)
Ya we are doing the same with Vista now.
but doing it simultaeneously attracts n00bs and alienates geeks:(
Let me guess, You have never seen Shuttle XPC, right?
Shuttle What ?
I call my PC "Lab Workstation" or just "Lab" for short :D
A PC is a PC if its a computer manufactured by IBM thats not called PS/2 and made for home/SOHO/entertainment use. There are no PCs in existance in the market by that defination.
+1, bang on target.

If you already have a Mac then there is no point wiping Mac OS X from the machine & installing it on a PC. You paid for the OS to be used on Mac machine. You want to use something on the PC then you have Vista or Linux waiting for you.
didn't I say custom OS ?
anyway, who said there is no point in wiping mac osx from a macintosh and installing it on some other computer ? Remember my old example about buying a cheap old mac for a throwaway price and installing its OSX on the computer of your choice instead ?


Let me tell the possible reasons people buy apple hardware(excluding portable stuff like MacBook, iPod, iPhone, etc which are rather good due to the non existance of custom built hardware in the same catogary):

the person wants to use OSX for its eye-candy
the person was influenced into buying it due to its flaunt value
the person is a hardcore apple fan
the person is too dumb to use an OS that needs you to do stuff
the person loves the good looking hardware that apple sells
the person needs some mac only software for work
the person has been brain washed by an apple fanboy
the person learnt to use a Mac to begin with, and now can't switch
the person is too lazy to learn internal stuff, which he needs to do in order to use other computers
the person is ignorant and thinks look is everything
the person can get apple hardware cheap, compared to other hardware
the person conciders ease of use by anyone more important than anything else
now, only the uderlined cases can be exempted as being seriously valid reasons for a "proper"(read smart, intelligent, sensible and hard working) guy to buy a mac instead of building his own computer.

I've a MBP and I love it. People who have Mac Pro (nepeker) or iMac (goobimama) will vouch for it and sing it's praise. The bottom line is almost all the Mac users are happy with their Mac, irrespective of what Mac hardware it's.

then I request goobimama and nepeker to reply here please !

================================================== =====
and finally a warning to all: don't make this a mac vs <your comp> thread
================================================== =====

[gx_saurav]

I've a MBP and I love it. People who have Mac Pro (nepeker) or iMac (goobimama) will vouch for it and sing it's praise. The bottom line is almost all the Mac users are happy with their Mac, irrespective of what Mac hardware it's.


Likewise there's this Apple Remote. I love AppleTV/Front Row. Like I've said I missed a quite a few. I can go on... don't want to waste my time and yours. :)

I wonder why Apple users have a feeling that they are the only ones enjoying computing :D

[drgrudge]

I wonder why Apple users have a feeling that they are the only ones enjoying computing :D
Honestly I enjoy my computing better than when I was using a PC.

JFYI, I still have a Windows PC, but none of us use. My brother, my dad and everyone who sees my Mac say that they like it. I'm not exaggerating and I've no reason to do so also.

[gx_saurav]

Take your own example, saurav. You yourself said that having a legal vista key and downloading a "customised" vista dvd from the net is not illegal.

Don't twist the words, I said that having a legal key & then downloading a non-customised Vista from the net is immoral but not illegal or piracy. You are using the legal key anyway whether it is with box pack of Vista or something downloaded via torrent.

If you have a box pack of Vista, you can even give it back to MS to get a new Box pack with Vista + SP1 integrated.

Get the facts dude. And don't throw that heavy Emperor penguin at me, if we meet in Bangalore :D

Shuttle What ?

Shuttle this.... (http://us.shuttle.com/Home.aspx)chullu bhar pani main doob mar yaar.


Let me tell the possible reasons people buy apple hardware(excluding portable stuff like MacBook, iPod, iPhone, etc which are rather good due to the non existance of custom built hardware in the same catogary):

the person wants to use OSX for its eye-candy
the person was influenced into buying it due to its flaunt value
the person is a hardcore apple fan
the person is too dumb to use an OS that needs you to do stuff
the person loves the good looking hardware that apple sells
the person needs some mac only software for work
the person has been brain washed by an apple fanboy
the person learnt to use a Mac to begin with, and now can't switch
the person is too lazy to learn internal stuff, which he needs to do in order to use other computers
the person is ignorant and thinks look is everything
the person can get apple hardware cheap, compared to other hardware
the person conciders ease of use by anyone more important than anything elsenow, only the uderlined cases can be exempted as being seriously valid reasons for a "proper"(read smart, intelligent, sensible and hard working) guy to buy a mac instead of building his own computer.


You kicked the arse of Macboys better then I did :D

================================================== =====
and finally a warning to all: don't make this a mac vs <your comp> thread
================================================== =====

Sorry, can't stop but My Workstation is better then all the Macs of Macboys here, sans nepcker who has a Mac Pro.

Honestly I enjoy my computing better than when I was using a PC.

JFYI, I still have a Windows PC, but none of us use. My brother, my dad and everyone who sees my Mac like it and say that they like it. I'm not exaggerating and I've no reason to do so also.

Same way, we Windows users are enjoying computing from a distance of 10 feet from the couch even before your Front row was copied from Windows Media Center..(example)

Don't talk like Mac users are only the ones who are enjoying easy computing. Even serious Linux users like Mehul & Kalpik are enjoying computing cos they know how to use a computer/OS. Most of the Mac users don't want to learn anything, which does makes sense cos even I don't want to learn Linux but at least I don't say that Linux/Mac users are not enjoying computing.

We all are enjoying computing our way, you enjoy on your Mac, I enjoy on my Workstation, Gautam enjoys at his Gautam OS 2 which I think is linux.

[praka123]

OS X -it is for those who want to feel elite seeing the eyecandy.
those lazybutts(most!) who cant open a terminal...
only for those who wants a internet+multimedia tool .
well ,OS X is *NIX :( that is sad!

[legolas]

We all are enjoying computing our way, you enjoy on your Mac, I enjoy on my Workstation, Gautam enjoys at his Gautam OS 2 which I think is linux.
Very true. Very true. I use my Vista and am extremely satisfied with it ( I have not used any external firewall or antivirus for the past 5-6 years) and I use Ubuntu occasionally and I am not having any issues with it either.
//may be this is off-topic, sorry if it is.
But, the question to ask is, again I am not arguing/deciding on anything. Those who have used Mac/Linux/Windows (I mean all 3), do they really feel Mac is the best compromise (not in rate), with hardware, superior hardware (as in LED monitors, keyboard lights and stuffs), an OS X and everything taken into consideration?? Are they vouching on it without any prejudice or bias?

[aryayush]

The only possible use for a mac is to "legally" run iLife and similar Mac exclusive apps that are face savers to the apple lineup."You pretty much can't go wrong with anything Apple is currently selling" (http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=EW4DUWCW3IS4WQSNDLPSK HSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=206902894&subSection=News)
“We’ve tested the Mac Pro, MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, the iMac, the Mac Mini, and the XServe,” exclaims Richard Hoffman (informationweek.com). “There’s not a bad Apple among the bunch, and some are truly superb.” In fact, Hoffman stipulates that “the entire product line is one of the strongest Apple’s ever had. Without hyperbole, it may be the best overall line of computers anyone has had, ever.” [Mar 24, 2008]

And this lineup, according to you, needs "face saving" by iLife and similar applications? You're wandering dangerously close to "anti-Apple fanboy" territory.

First you have to answer me (I assume that you have a Mac- iMac, MD, MBP MBA. Macmini or mac pro watever) Why did you buy it? Was it because of the hardware only or was the main reason of your purchasing that you wanted OS X?I bought a Mac for the following reasons : Design (if I hadn't bought a Mac, I would've owned a Sony Vaio), superior hardware and OS X in that order. Now that I've used a Mac for 6 months, I think I would want to own a {future} Mac for : Apps/OS X, Design and Superior hardware in that order.Couldn't have said it better myself. My reasons would be exactly the same. :)

The thing is that for most people, OS X is important than hardware itself. Though by no means is it ordinary.Right-o.

Now assuming that most of the people want OSX and Apple has the capability to tweak it to perform equally well on non Apple hardwareNo, they don't. How can you assume that they do? The moment Apple starts attempting to support all the graphics and sound cards, processors and motherboards in the world, Mac OS X will lose the stability that Apple prides itself on.

Apple is not following restrictive trade policies, they're ensuring that all their customers get top-notch products. If it means restricting themselves to just a small subset of the market, they're ready to make that sacrifice. Brand value, product quality and customer satisfaction and loyalty is far more important to Steve Jobs than a large market share.

The one time they decided to make the software while letting someone else take care of the hardware, we all know what the end result turned out to be like. I'm talking, of course, about the Moto ROKR crap.

Macs are what they are only because Apple does the whole monty. The software and hardware are not engineered in two separate factories with no link between them. It's all housed under one roof and under the tight control of one visionary person who knows what he's doing. More importantly, he knows what the customer wants better than the customers themselves.

Henry Ford once said something along the lines of, "If I'd asked my potential customers what they wanted when I set out to make the first car, we'd have ended up with faster bullock-carts." That's not the exact quote. The actual one does not involve bullock-carts and is much better, but I hope you get the point.

You don't know what you want. Yeah, that sounds funny, but it's true.

Whenever we have any suggestions or requests to make, we always leave the crucial decisions upon the maker. For example, I want Apple to make a digital camera, so I'll say, "I wish Apple made a simple digital camera that wasn't a pain to use. I don't care how or what they do, I just want them to do it like only they can." In this case, I know I want a digital camera, but I have no idea what exactly I want and how that product can be made.

Similarly, you know you want Mac OS X because all those marketing buzzwords and customer reviews sound too good to be true, but you don't actually want the OS. You want an OS that performs like Mac OS X does, but you can't have that without the Macs that are tailor-made for it and power it.

Also take note of the fact that the one OS in the industry that is the prime example of the most bug-ridden, virus infected, insecure and problem-prone platform is Windows, which also happens to be the only closed source OS in the industry that you can purchase independently and install on any hardware of your choosing. Clearly, it's not the ideal solution, because we wouldn't otherwise be discussing Mac OS X here.

Mac OS X works and is what it is because of those restrictions you're complaining about. The moment you kill the chicken, it'll stop laying the golden eggs. So, you should think before you point fingers. :)


Also, I'm actually quite happy that we are having this discussion, no matter how redundant it may be, because even if no one is explicitly stating so, the general sentiment is quite clear. Most of you guys agree that Mac OS X is indeed the most superior OS out there. When Microsoft restricted the running of Vista Home Basic on virtual machines, we [Mac users] didn't sit here discussing whether it was legal or not if we did so, because, to put it quite bluntly, no one gave a ****. That's clearly not the case here.

I don't know why people find it so difficult to agree that some other OS, browser or mobile phone is better than the one they use. I, for one, agree that Sony Ericsson has trumped Nokia (which I use now) and Firefox is now better than Opera (which I've advocated for the better part of the several years of Internet browsing behind me).

Just come out and say it, people–no one is going to laugh at you (though there might be a few "I told you sos"). I'm pointing at the gx_sauravs and iMavs (who was so inspired by the iMac that he changed his username) in particular, who've been secretly whispering sweet nothings to their illegal Mac OS X installations for the past several months. :lol:

(ring_wraith, kumarmohit and others who actually read the posts they are posting replies to are welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Please don't post idiotic and irrelevant replies just to serve as flamebait. The gx_sauravs need not apply.)

[narangz]

I thought this thread was for discussing legalities & not butt kicking :D

[infra_red_dude]

I thought this thread was for discussing legalities & not butt kicking :D
Sigh! thats the fate of every damn thread here at TD forums... Waiting for kumarmohit to come up with the analysis he's made...

Is it illegal? Can breach of contract be termed illegal? Crime? You may be morally wrong in installing OS X on PC but can you be tried for that? I'm interested to know about these things...

[gx_saurav]

Wow arya, u got so much calibar & no life to sit in front of your Mac, drool over it & type so much....& u still haven't paid me my Rs 1,000 I won in the bet. :D.... Why do u want me to reply here point by & kick at that Apple...

I'm pointing at the gx_sauravs and iMavs (who was so inspired by the iMac that he changed his username) in particular, who've been secretly whispering sweet nothings to their illegal Mac OS X installations for the past several months. :lol:

(ring_wraith, kumarmohit and others who actually read the posts they are posting replies to are welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Please don't post idiotic and irrelevant replies just to serve as flamebait. The gx_sauravs need not apply.)

oh! & just for the record, I removed Mac OS X 4 months back.

[iMav]

has all this sprung up due to my statement of taming the lame cat :rolleyes:,

@grudgy this issue of providing support or no was well put to rest when zeeshan and co (me & gx) installed tiger on our machines and all threads related to installing or how-to install osx on a pc have since then been locked ;)

@kumar: bhai indian it laws are sh1t and here its raaboism and not indian laws :)

[The_Devil_Himself]

yummy!

[drgrudge]

has all this sprung up due to my statement of taming the lame cat :rolleyes:,

@grudgy this issue of providing support or no was well put to rest when zeeshan and co (me & gx) installed tiger on our machines and all threads related to installing or how-to install osx on a pc have since then been locked ;)

@kumar: bhai indian it laws are sh1t and here its raaboism and not indian laws :)
None gives a **** as what you do or think about Mac OS X.

Just cited your example. None here after will be supported. Threads will be just be deleted.

Like you said, we don't give a damn about Indian IT Laws. This place is run by Dictators. You abide by what we say or get the **** out of here. :)

[iMav]

The moment Apple starts attempting to support all the graphics and sound cards, processors and motherboards in the world, Mac OS X will lose the stability that Apple prides itself on.+1

Apple is not following restrictive trade policies, they're ensuring that all their customers get top-notch products. not following restrictive trade policies ... what crap
If it means restricting themselves to just a small subset of the market, they're ready to make that sacrifice. Brand value, product quality and customer satisfaction and loyalty is far more important to Steve Jobs than a large market share.
have to agree here for steve jobs he is more content by blaming and crying that billy g "stole" his idea and has influenced more comp sales than the baldy can ever dream of
The one time they decided to make the software while letting someone else take care of the hardware, we all know what the end result turned out to be like. I'm talking, of course, about the Moto ROKR crap. rokr and ming are the best cell phones that motorola has come up with in terms of use

Macs are what they are only because Apple does the whole monty. The software and hardware are not engineered in two separate factories with no link between them. It's all housed under one roof and under the tight control of one visionary person who knows what he's doing. in simpler terms restrictive trade policies :)
More importantly, he knows what the customer wants better than the customers themselves. bang on target, users dont want a2dp, bluetooth, vdo rec, ability to run multiple apps on their fones and people sure dont want to keep their own ringtone on the fone ;)


Henry Ford once said something along the lines of, "If I'd asked my potential customers what they wanted when I set out to make the first car, we'd have ended up with faster bullock-carts." That's not the exact quote. The actual one does not involve bullock-carts and is much better, but I hope you get the point.
yeah and we all know ford's sales


Also take note of the fact that the one OS in the industry that is the prime example of the most bug-ridden, virus infected, insecure and problem-prone platform is Windows, which also happens to be the only closed source OS in the industry that you can purchase independently and install on any hardware of your choosing. Clearly, it's not the ideal solution, because we wouldn't otherwise be discussing Mac OS X here. some 1 needs to read the reports abt which OS has the least vulnerabilities ...


Mac OS X works and is what it is because of those restrictions you're complaining about. restrictive trade policies :rolleyes:


I don't know why people find it so difficult to agree that some other OS, browser or mobile phone is better than the one they use. I, for one, agree that Sony Ericsson has trumped Nokia (which I use now) and Firefox is now better than Opera (which I've advocated for the better part of the several years of Internet browsing behind me). :lol:

Just come out and say it, people–no one is going to laugh at you (though there might be a few "I told you sos"). I'm pointing at the gx_sauravs and iMavs (who was so inspired by the iMac that he changed his username) in particular, who've been secretly whispering sweet nothings to their illegal Mac OS X installations for the past several months. wasnt the iMac - considering the fact u know the difference between an iMac and OS X on a pc ;)

None gives a **** as what you do or think about Mac OS X. tu toh senti ho gaya

None here after will be supported. Threads will be just be deleted. thts whats been happning since the tiger installation by zeeshan was first made public here :)


Like you said, we don't give a damn about Indian IT Laws. This place is run by Dictators. You abide by what we say or get the **** out of here. period

[ring_wraith]

(ring_wraith, kumarmohit and others who actually read the posts they are posting replies to are welcome to weigh in with their opinions. Please don't post idiotic and irrelevant replies just to serve as flamebait. The gx_sauravs need not apply.)

lol... fine print, that's really killing me.

Anyway, @iMav, not the rokr E6, this one :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_ROKR

also, @aayush, from the restrictive trade website,

It fosters the competitive environment necessary to give consumers a choice in price, quality and service.

Therefore, Apple is indeed practicing restrictive trade. Take my case for example, I want to install Mac OS X on my PC, and would rather not buy a Mac in order to be able to use aforementioned OS. Therefore, I am being denied my choice of OS.

Although I completely agree with you when you say that Apple's software and hardware were not meant to exist independently.

[aryayush]

Those who have used Mac/Linux/Windows (I mean all 3), do they really feel Mac is the best compromise (not in rate), with hardware, superior hardware (as in LED monitors, keyboard lights and stuffs), an OS X and everything taken into consideration?? Are they vouching on it without any prejudice or bias?The only people who qualify are the Mac users, of course, because it's pretty much a fact that "once you go Mac, you never go back". All Mac users here have, without exception, used Windows and Linux as well and all of them universally agree that Mac is the best platform to be on.

But, of course, that makes us biased, right? You can only be considered unbiased if you don't vouch for the Mac because, clearly, if you do so, you've been brainwashed by Steve Jobs' mystic forces.

So, to answer your question–I, as one of the very few people here who've actually used various iterations of Windows, several Linux distros (though not as extensively as Windows or Mac OS X) and Mac OS X Tiger and Leopard, can say with experience backing me up that Mac OS X is unparalleled right now, the best OS in the market by far.

[praka123]

"the best os" is a subjective term :rolleyes:
I can say that Debian (http://debian.org) GNU/Linux (http://makethemove.net/) is the best!
regarding eyecandy-a proper themed GNU/Linux distro(opensuse for eg) can own OS X .added to that it uses Linux kernel(better).
Usability -I have to admit OS X is extremely easy for a amateur though :p
I have seen lot of os x users in ubuntuforums who are exclusively booting into Ubuntu Linux in their mac platform :lol:

[aryayush]

Therefore, Apple is indeed practicing restrictive trade. Take my case for example, I want to install Mac OS X on my PC, and would rather not buy a Mac in order to be able to use aforementioned OS. Therefore, I am being denied my choice of OS.I would be the last person to claim to know anything about Indian laws but don't you think that quote applies when those restrictions are harmful for customers and there is a general feeling of discontentment and dissatisfaction among them?

Apple's restricting the OS to their own hardware actually makes both their hardware and software much better to use and the company enjoys the highest level of customer satisfaction, unparalleled by any company in any industry in the world. How does it make their policy bad?

Simply put, Apple does not view their operating system and computers as two parts of a whole. They view their combination as a single product and treat them as such. To illustrate this, let me point out that Apple does not sell a single device without its own software pre-installed, unlike almost every other company in the industry.

Also, riddle me this: Before pointing fingers at Apple, tell me why is no one blaming Sony Ericsson for tying their phones' OS to the phones it runs on? Why can't you buy it and install it on your Nokia? Why can't you install the Wii's software on your PS3 or Xbox? Or the software in your TV on your washing machine?

I don't see anyone complaining about any of all those other fields in the technology industry where hardware and software have always been fundamentally integrated, just like Macs are today? Just because Microsoft chose to go a different route, which (as we all know) comes with its own share of problems (that are innumerable), how does it makes Apple's not following them a "restrictive trade policy"? Right from the very first Mac, the Mac OS has always been a part and parcel of the whole computer. Why should Apple have to change just because Microsoft did?

I think it's actually quite commendable that even in the fact of strong opposition from the entire market (which includes Microsoft, the giant, and all the hardware, accessory and software makers), Apple managed to hold its own. The fact that you're seeing a very successful Apple today even after thirty years of fighting against aggressive pricing and myriad different competitors on various levels is a feat worth honouring.

They're successful in every single aspect of their business–they are the market leaders in the MP3 player business, have a cult following in the Mac business and a budding team of developers, the iPhone is a huge success and is regarded as the "JesusPhone", they're successful in retail, both online and through their brick and mortar stores, they don't participate in any mega-events in the industry and yet generate the most buzz, are a very highly regarded brand, enjoy insane levels of customer loyalty, can boast of the best customer service in the industry... where the heck is this company lacking! Apple is the most well rounded and exciting company in the industry right now. Apple is the company Sun and Adobe go to so that they can be a part of the iPhone, not the other way round.

Sorry to go on a bit of a tangent there but once I start typing away, new thoughts keep springing out of nowhere. :p


Tell me one thing, among all the electronic goods in your house–your television, fridge, air conditioner, washing machine, computer, etc.–which one gives you the most hassles. In the last one year, which one has required you to troubleshoot it the most? I can proudly say that it was my air conditioner, which broke twice within the last one year. My computer didn't. I didn't need to troubleshoot my computer even twice within the whole of last year, as far as I can remember.

Sure, there are people who aren't as lucky as me even after purchasing a Mac. Like anything else, problems can crop up with Macs too. But the chances are drastically less than other PCs. Why? Because Apple strives to minimise the difference between how much you have to fix your television and how much you have to fix your computer. And they can do that only, and only, because they make the whole widget.

End of discussion. Period.

(And please read the highlighted paragraph twice before posting a reply. I'm sure that if one tries hard enough, the point I'm trying to make is bound to hit home, even if you are unfortunate enough to be gx_saurav or iMav.)

[FilledVoid]

Legal Point of View as what I have I understood:
A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.
Did anyone here even notice the word in bold here? You cannot install Mac OS on a Non Apple branded computer as stated specifically in the License. I don't understand why you would want to . But thats beyond the topic in discussion so why even go there? If you downloaded the software off a torrent or from ICanRunAppleonMyPC.com guess what you already broke the license and its known as "Infringement of Copyright". Not to mention that the code wasn't supposed ot be on the net on the first place because it wasn't supposed to be on the Internet for redistribution. From this you have already breached the Eula, if you bought it from your Local Pirate then you have contributed to Piracy which is again an offense, further more you will face "Vicarious Liability" because you benefit from installing it on your computer, if you distributed it to someone else then you face "Contributory Infringement".

Yes I know that you are going to say that you wiped it off your Mac so why can't I place it on my PC. First of all those bold words up there mainly say why. Want more? Read on.
C. Except as and only to the extent permitted in this License, by applicable licensing terms governing use of the Open-Sourced Components, or by applicable law, you may not copy, decompile,reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works of the Apple Software or any part thereof.
If you are required to install any patch to the software then you have caused alteration to the Code for Apple's software which again leads you to breach of Information Act Section 43 (c). By the way did someone say that the amount of compensation the person had to pay would not exceed the cost of a Mac? Guess again, according to this rule it specifically says "....he shall be liable to pay damages by the way of compensation not exceeding one crore rupees to the person so affected.
Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend, redistribute or sublicense the Apple Software.
I've already explained the points to this above. if further clarification is needed I'll be happy to explain it again.
[quote]Contrary to what you think, there is no crime in installing OS X on a PC if you strip it from a Mac you purchased. It is a breach of contract, a civil wrong, a wrong against a single entity as opposed to a crime which a wrong against the state.
Are you saying that crimes are only deeds committed against the State cause I'm confused here? If I recall correctly anything that breaks the law is a crime :S . Please clarify this so I could possibly understand it better. If you are referring to imprisonment I'm sorry to tell you that under IT Act Section 66 (Hacking a computer system - modification of a computer resource , a bit far fetched but definitely legally debatable) states this "Whoever commits hacking shall be punished with imprisonment up to three years, or with fine which may extend up to two lakh rupees, or with both. ".
Since you wiped the copy from first place, and you paid for one copy only, you are in the realm of law even if you install it on non Apple hardware.
False. As pointed to above.
There is difference between breach of EULA and piracy. Installing OSX on a PC after you have wiped it off from a Mac you purchased is a breach of EULA not Piracy.
Yes it is. As long as you didn't buy the CD off your local Pirate or download it off Torrents then you should be in the clear for Piracy. But the rest of the offenses should be more than enough to give you legal hell in India.
Please remember that in India we are governed by Indian Contract Act and Indian Copyrights Act. Breach of contract is NOT a Crime in India.
I don't understand this as I said above. Are you saying that Breach of Contract is not punishable according to Indian Law?
The maximum Jobs can do is ask you for compensation. He can not get you tried for a crime. The term illegal means something which is contrary to the law. Breach of contract is not a crime. It is civil wrong. Since the law does allow you to use your copy the way you want, Apple can not regulate where you use your copy of OSX, provided that you are ready to pay the damages (Not fine - fine is paid to state not to the offended party. Damages are paid to the offended party in a civil case.) of loss. These damages can in no case be more than the price you paid for the said Mac.
Again my above points otherwise and trust me when I say he can sue you for more than the cost of a puny Mac. The term Illegal is used to denote an act constituted against any law upheld in whatever place you reside and not to mention that you are governed by MANY more laws than the "Indian Contract Act and Indian Copyrights Act".
Please do not consider this the official word. I am still discussing the matter with my teachers at Campus Law center, University of Delhi. I would post the final part as soon as we reach to a definite legal conclusion
Doing an ASCL Cyber law Course? If so I was in the GLC-10 batch :D!
Since there is no such precedent or legislation which says that Apple limiting people to its hardware is allowed and installation of OSX on non Apple hardware is a breach of copyright. (Please read the Sony music CD example I gave in the first post) installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is not a crime. Hence the usage of term " installation of OS X on non Apple hardware is illegal" is incorrect.
And if you have noticed they haven't issued statement saying that you may only play this Audio CD on "UBAH CD Player 101" rather you may not make copies of it or redistribute it. This scenario would not uphold in Apple's case cause they specifically say that you shall use it on an Apple branded Computer.
you do purchase OSX. If you are switching from Tiger to Leopard that is.
As far as I recall, you never purchase the Operating System . You only have purchased the media. Yes I know you are charged for the software but as per Apple.
The software (including Boot ROM code), documentation and any fonts accompanying this License whether on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the “Apple Software”) are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. (“Apple”) for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly granted to you.

Considering that OSX is not a RISC platform anymore and it is possible to (by whatever means ) install it on a PC, this locking thing can, in theory, be termed as a restrictive trade practice.Naturally people buy from Apple not coz they want its hardware but coz they want OS X. So if someone wants OS X, he has no option but to purchase Apple hardware, it can technically be termed as a restrictive trade practice.

I beg to differ. Just cause Apples Mac OSX runs on their specific hardware doesn't man that it is following a restrictive trade practice. Maybe I am not understanding the scenario good enough. Show me what in the "The Monopolies And Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1969" shows Apple Following restrictive trade practices in India.

Just putting in my 2 cents worth. Post is not made to make anyone feel bad:| . Sorry for the long post. By the way as far as Laws in India goes. Its not really the laws that are flawed. Its the officials who are supposed to implement it.

Sorry for not mentioning Sources.
http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/ <-- Got the Mac OS License Agreement from here I used the one for Tiger 10.4 (Is that the correct one ? cause there is quite a few in there.)
ASCL Cyber Law Books - I have 4 volumes at home from a Diploma I did in Cyber Law.
Some of the links mentioned above in previous posts.

[The_Devil_Himself]

^^you are abusing your keyboard.;)

[ring_wraith]

Him and Aayush. :p

And @Aayush, Not finger pointing, I for one completely agree to what you have said. Just correcting you when you said that Apple is not resorting to Restrictive trade. Irrespective of the effect and who's doing it or not, fact is Apple's doing it too.

and,

I'm sure that if one tries hard enough, the point I'm trying to make is bound to hit home, even if you are unfortunate enough to be gx_saurav or iMav


You really should quit that you know :p

[FilledVoid]

^^you are abusing your keyboard.
Lol yeah I tend to do that once in a while :D .

[kumarmohit]

@ Filled Void:
Nope not Cyber Law - General LLb.

Your approach is very correct.

Considering that I was basing my logic on the Sony CD part and the the fact that which you have successfully busted. I was taking that breach of EULA is a breach of contract and not that of copyright. I guess we can as of now safely decide it is a crime. Unless it is decided as a restrictive trade practice
All in all I consider myself thoroughly out statuted! And bow out of the discussion. Especially with Section 66, IT Act which makes modification a crime and we can not do it without patching.

I would like to differ on the MRTP part yet! Considering that Apple's forcing you to buy its hardware when in moist cases people only want to buy its software, and Steve himself says that they

(1) believe themselves as a software company.
(2) accept that a mac is nothing but OS X in a pretty box.

And the fact that they the steps to restrict OS X from running on non apple hardware, when most people want only the software but are forced to buy hardware because the company despite being a software company makes you buy its hardware. It can be called uncompetitive bundling of products and monopolization to a certain extent.

PS: Grudgy thanks for your effort and thanks everyone else for contribution. I would pursue the matter from a restrictive trade practice point but as of now, with the conditions we have in the law it can be safely considered a crime.

@ everyone else: Sorry Guyz, no OS X for you unless you buy it with a Apple computer. However hope is not dead yet. There is till the restrictive trade practice part.

[FilledVoid]

@ Filled Void:
Nope not Cyber Law - General LLb.


Ah ok . Ive not seen many Future advocates looking into tech Forums :). If you would like to further go into IT LAW I would recommend the ASCL diploma although Im not sure if thats already included in your syllabus.

. I guess we can as of now safely decide it is a crime. Unless it is decided as a restrictive trade practice
All in all I consider myself thoroughly out statuted! And bow out of the discussion. Especially with Section 66, IT Act which makes modification a crime and we can not do it without patching.

Actually I never looked deeply into the MRTP Act :). So I'll also check into it. I doubt it would come under it because it does not in any way affect how the market performs or give any product an unfair advantage over the other. Not to mention that compared to the EU I believe that India is much more lenient. An example of this would be the numerous EU law Suits filed for. Another interesting one is the Wood Industry in USA and Canada if I recall correctly. Anyway it would definitely be more interesting to hear more about this . Personally I found somethings rather interesting in the EULA of Mac when looking into it.

Certain components of the Apple Software, and third party open source programs included with the Apple Software, have been or may be made available by Apple on its Open Source web site (http://www.opensource.apple.com/) (collectively the "Open-Sourced Components"). You may modify or replace only these Open-Sourced Components; provided that: (i) the resultant modified Apple Software is used, in place of the unmodified Apple Software, on a single Apple-labeled computer; and (ii) you otherwise comply with the terms of this License and any applicable licensing terms governing use of the Open-Sourced Components. Apple is not obligated to provide any maintenance, technical or other support for the resultant modified Apple Software.

Could an Apple User please confirm what this means? Are they saying that the Apple Open Source Components may be modified as long as you only use it on your own computer :( ? Cause I really don't understand the logic behind making it Open Source at all :O.

[MetalheadGautham]

@ayyush, wrt success of apple products:

In a previous post, you said buying an apple product will do no wrong
but I beg to differ
its an economical ruin of your self
personally speaking, I advice a mac only if you get it cheaper or if you are incapable of building your own machine.

...and I am n.o.t. an anti-mac fanboy. I am just economical by nature.

[T159]

I have seen lot of os x users in ubuntuforums who are exclusively booting into Ubuntu Linux in their mac platform :lol:
thats a fact, even i hav seen people adoring Ubuntu more than anything.

[MetalheadGautham]

thats a fact, even i hav seen people adoring Ubuntu more than anything.
and that makes me sick.
in my opinion, no person can be called a respectable person if he does not show off his own indivuduality. And that goes to OSes too. I am a Mac User if I buy a macmini. I am an alienware dude if I buy an alienware rig. I am a ubuntu boy if I buy a Dell Ubuntu Computer for my use.

But I am ME and ME alone if I build my own computer and get my own customised OS.

I love myself because I am an indivudual with my own indivuduality.

[legolas]

^ ^ Well in that case, you should try building your own OS. That would be the height of individuality.
What makes me sick is you are just setting standards to where you stand, just like what others have claim, except that you feel you are not obliged to any of these restrictions.
Your concept of individuality again is not true. The purpose of a computer does not encompass a witty-choosing (claimed as individuality) as the lion's share.
and I love myself coz.... um... er.... I sort of have to :D (just kidding)

[MetalheadGautham]

^ ^ Well in that case, you should try building your own OS. That would be the height of individuality.
What makes me sick is you are just setting standards to where you stand, just like what others have claim, except that you feel you are not obliged to any of these restrictions.
Your concept of individuality again is not true. The purpose of a computer does not encompass a witty-choosing (claimed as individuality) as the lion's share.
and I love myself coz.... um... er.... I sort of have to :D (just kidding)
ofcource I have my own OS, ubuntu eXtreme edition.
I just said using something "as it is" reduces indivuality.

and I only said this because ubuntu is starting to turn into a "I love ununtu" club. Linux is supposed to be about DIY and hence indivuduality automatically comes here, but ubuntu, SuSE, etc are messing that up and linux is loosing its reputation.

[FilledVoid]

and that makes me sick.
in my opinion, no person can be called a respectable person if he does not show off his own indivuduality.

Why should you feel bad about that? If the person bought his Mac hes free to experiment in any way he/she wants as long as he doesn't break the "SLA" (Apple doesn't call it EULA for some odd reason). So the person might install Windows , Mac or and Linux on it (I don't know if Mac can dual or tri boot so don't quote me on that). As a matter fact I recall one of the respected posters (Gnurag I think) although I do miss his educational posts nowadays running Ubuntu on his Powerbook (is that what it is called?).

Respecting a persons individuality is something this forum lacks all together. If a person says something about Windows it suddenly becomes a "HAHAHAHA you nooborz please delete yourself thread" or if a person runs Linux then its "HAHAHAHA you bunch of freaky nerds" etc. How about everyone respecting a persons freedom of choice and let them be satisfied with what it is they use.

By the way just to clarify something which is being played over and over like a scratched record right now. It is NOT illegal to install Mac OSX on a PC because it would not give you the same performance that you have on its respective Mac Hardware but its illegal because it breaks the SLA its as simple as that. The rest of how Apple works and how it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside is moot. End of Story.

[legolas]

ofcource I have my own OS, ubuntu eXtreme edition.
I just said using something "as it is" reduces indivuality.
he he, I meant from the scratch. Yes, you are right Linux's reputation under the new name Ubuntu is questionable.
Mac has already turned into this giant and best OS+hardware + other softwares supposedly, that the debates are endless.
Ubuntu is starting to. Its not too long before we see Ubuntu Vs other linux or Fedora or something.
It is opinionistic, but its no different from modifying a current OS to suit your needs which you have done. We all do, but our needs to customize may be relatively less and/or all/most we expect comes with 1 particular OS. The ultimate aim is not to quibble over who takes more time and brain to set the OS into a working environment, but set it at the most workable environment and start using constructively for that is the whole purpose (at least to me, all the projects I have done so far). The other customizations are merely for satisfactory purposes. (not reg. hardware, I was only telling reg. softwares. Hardwares are extremely choosy and the more knowledgeable the more time and money you invest to set up to both satisfy and arguably suit the best of your needs)

But I understand when you say, do what you want, but stop claiming you are immediately a so-and-so and discredit the only lovely open community existing. True!!

[narangz]

Respecting a persons individuality is something this forum lacks all together. If a person says something about Windows it suddenly becomes a "HAHAHAHA you nooborz please delete yourself thread" or if a person runs Linux then its "HAHAHAHA you bunch of freaky nerds" etc. How about everyone respecting a persons freedom of choice and let them be satisfied with what it is they use

+1. I can't agree more :)

[ring_wraith]

and that makes me sick.
in my opinion, no person can be called a respectable person if he does not show off his own indivuduality. And that goes to OSes too. I am a Mac User if I buy a macmini. I am an alienware dude if I buy an alienware rig. I am a ubuntu boy if I buy a Dell Ubuntu Computer for my use.

But I am ME and ME alone if I build my own computer and get my own customised OS.

I love myself because I am an indivudual with my own indivuduality.

Care to elaborate on what is your customized OS? New Wallpaper?

What you are saying is just a ridiculous and pointless effort to separate yourself from the crowd. There is nothing un-cool about using an OS that everyone is using if it is more effective than the one you are using. It's almost like saying,

"Oh everyone is using Keyboards for text entry! What un-cool idiots! I'm going to use the on-screen keyboard, or maybe the mouse! No wait! I absolutely have to spend an unnecessary amount of time in order to create my own input method. which is probably never going to be as effective as a keyboard! I mean, come on, I want to be unique and express my individuality!!!"

I really could not help that outburst. Ubuntu aims to popularize what is probably the most underused OS out there, and you complain, saying its popularizing Linux. Damn.

What would I choose between individuality and effectiveness/ease of use/support?

Uhhhhh.... Wait, I can figure it out, Yeah, it's coming, wait I almost got it!!!

The latter!! Duh!

[kumarmohit]

As a matter fact I recall one of the respected posters (Gnurag I think) although I do miss his educational posts

Yep It would be two years next month that the April crisis took place. Some of the best members of the forum left at that time. Even I miss those days:(

Respecting a persons individuality is something this forum lacks all together. If a person says something about Windows it suddenly becomes a "HAHAHAHA you nooborz please delete yourself thread" or if a person runs Linux then its "HAHAHAHA you bunch of freaky nerds" etc. How about everyone respecting a persons freedom of choice and let them be satisfied with what it is they use.

Fanboyism is on the rise in the forum, and this is from all the three camps, Windows, Linux and Apple as well.

[ring_wraith]

^^ that's true, and it hurts.

[praka123]

@kumvrmohit:april crisis?well,those who felt getting power is all, reaped what they need!boycotted and still digit forum is strong :rolleyes:


Why Apple fans hate tech reporters
The Wrath of the Apple Tribe (http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/23/0151225)


"If you've ever written about Apple products with even a hint of negativity (http://machinist.salon.com/feature/2008/03/18/true_enough_excerpt_2/index.html), you'll appreciate Salon's excerpt from Farhad Manjoo's True Enough, about why the Apple tribe is so rabid. 'There are many tribes in the tech world: TiVo lovers, Blackberry addicts, Palm Treo fanatics, and people who exhibit unhealthy affection for their Roomba robotic vacuum cleaners,' writes Manjoo. 'But there is no bigger tribe, and none more zealous, than fans of Apple, who are infamous for their sensitivity to slams, real or imagined, against the beloved company.' Wall Street Journal columnist Walt Mossberg has even coined a name for the phenomenon — the 'Doctrine of Insufficient Adulation.' 'If I see the world as all black and you see the world as all white and some person comes along and says it's partially black and partially white, we both are going to be unhappy,' says psychologist Lee Ross at Stanford University. 'You think there are more facts and better facts on your side than on the other side. The very act of giving them equal weight seems like bias. Like inappropriate evenhandedness.'"http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/23/0151225

much familiar to me :lol:

[iMav]

Fanboyism is on the rise in the forum, and this is from all the three camps, Windows, Linux and Apple as well.
i dont think its on a rise rather its on a decline as compared to what it was when the iphone was abt to be launched or when vista was released

and yeah what was the april crisis

[T159]

yeah wat was the april crisis ?

I dont come arnd fan boy wars here too often. Let the peace prevail.

[kumarmohit]

April crisis took place in April 2006. It was actually mass resignation of mods and a member admin of the forum. A number of great members left for good until the people at Digit responded and tried to sort things out At that time the forum was running on a rather vulnerable and old version of phpBB. At Around April 2006, the form came under repeated attacks by bots, advertising bots of all kinds. Digit people were being generally sleepy and the mods were crying hoarse that forum needed some major overhauling.

I do not know wat was the last straw on camel's back but on April 15(If i recall correctly), the mods and member admin resigned en masse. While some chains were rattled and the forum moved to V Bulletin, some of the members left for good. And good members at that!

[narangz]

well what exactly it was? you 've got many people interested in that.

thanks for the info... yea i remember php based digit

[ring_wraith]

April crisis took place in April 2006. It was actually mass resignation of mods and a member admin of the forum. At that time the forum was running on a rather vulnerable and old version of phpBB. At Around April 2006, the form came under repeated attacks by bots, advertising bots of all kinds. Digit people were being generally sleepy and the mods were crying hoarse that forum needed some major overhauling.

I do not know wat was the last straw on camel's back but on April 15(If i recall correctly), the mods and member admin resigned en masse. While some chains were rattled and the forum moved to V Bulletin, some of the members left for good. And good members at that!

I was just wondering when the first full-scale online rebellion would take place around these parts.

[gx_saurav]

even if you are unfortunate enough to be gx_saurav or iMav

Trust me arya, if u dare to drag our name in this discussion again calling us indirectly idiots cos we don't like Mac OS X, then it will take me 10 mins only to pwn u & your mac philosophy right now.

Don't get me started on "Apple will loose stability if they support generic hardware" crap, u know nothing about the drivers & OS architecture of Mach kernel there

[mediator]

April crisis took place in April 2006. It was actually mass resignation of mods and a member admin of the forum. At that time the forum was running on a rather vulnerable and old version of phpBB. At Around April 2006, the form came under repeated attacks by bots, advertising bots of all kinds. Digit people were being generally sleepy and the mods were crying hoarse that forum needed some major overhauling.

I do not know wat was the last straw on camel's back but on April 15(If i recall correctly), the mods and member admin resigned en masse. While some chains were rattled and the forum moved to V Bulletin, some of the members left for good. And good members at that!
Everything requires a source (http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27004) here! ;)

[kumarmohit]

I searched for this thread but was unable to find it:)
many thanks man!
I hope this clears many doubts!

[FilledVoid]

Trust me arya, if u dare to drag our name in this discussion again calling us indirectly idiots cos we don't like Mac OS X, then it will take me 10 mins only to pwn u & your mac philosophy right now.

Don't get me started on "Apple will loose stability if they support generic hardware" crap, u know nothing about the drivers & OS architecture of Mach kernel there

If it makes you feel better none of the Apple consumers didn't even seem to
understand the SLA or at least this discussion would have ended pages ago.

The MRTP doesn't apply to this case not because Apple choose to bundle its software and hardware together.