Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux.

[aryayush]

Hello!
I couldn't find any. Linux advocates give a million reasons for Windows users to make the switch. Some of them are very true, some not so much. But, in general, it has become the notion nowadays that Linux is, indeed, a better platform than Windows. Windows enthusiasts will vehemently deny it, and I do too, and Linux users whole heartly support the notion.
Anyway, what I would like to know is what are the reasons, if any, that make Linux (any single distribution - not all of them combined) a better choice than Apple's Mac OS X Tiger (and Leopard). I have used Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and OpenSUSE Linux 10.1. Both of them were very good, at least much better than I had expected. But (there's always a but!) I could not see anything that would want me to ditch OS X and use Linux full time. I am all for experimenting and I always try to get hold of beta versions of anything (and I just love wasting bandwidth). So I wouldn't mind trying a few more Linux distros (in fact, Fedore Core 6 "Zod" is being downloaded as I type).
I invite all Linux users and open source fans to post the advantages they think that Linux users enjoy over the Macintosh and it might really help me discover some great new Linux specific features that I am missing on the Macintosh.
However, I would like to put a stop to two very invalid arguments right here. the first is that Linux is free and the Mac is very expensive. We are talking about a person who has already bought a Mac making the switch to Linux, so the argument really has no value anyway. Besides, we are only taking about the software and it's features here. The second one is that Linux makes a better server. As we are talking about end user experience of a normal home user here, servers should not raise their heads in this thread. It is my request that you please don't bring the above two aspects into the discussion.
Please do start! :p

P.S. - I posted this in the 'Fight Club' section because I am sure this will eventually turn into a 'Mac vs. Linux' debate and is things are bound to get heated up. Moderators may, however, wish to move it to 'Open Source' if they have confidence on the temperament of the forum members here!

[mediator]

However, I would like to put a stop to two very invalid arguments right here. the first is that Linux is free and the Mac is very expensive. We are talking about a person who has already bought a Mac making the switch to Linux, so the argument really has no value anyway.

I know argument is of no value, but the highlighted part is a strong reason n u r trying to suppress it before the talk? Its like requesting the people not to talk on the main advantages! Its not the only, but certainly one of the main advantages.


The second one is that Linux makes a better server.

U r trying to supress another advantage?
U want people to talk on something in which u think Mac is better than Linux?

U have posted it in fight club and u want people to talk on a small section of the main topic? Why don't u launch a full fledged debate??

I really dunno how good Mac is nor can I compare the end/normal user's experience and many won't be able to either coz only a few people here have used it And in a debate the person shud have experience on both the platforms! But one thing's for sure, the Open Source community is rising very very fast! Alteast Thats what I have noticed in mah college n here! And with such increasing community support, Linux is really gonna be the perfection of tommorrow!

[aryayush]

This is not intended to be a Mac vs. Linux discussion. I just wanted to know that if Mac and Linux were both free, which one should a home user opt for? Obviously, a person needs a machine to run an operating system and you don't get the hardware to run Linux for free. Now, if a person has opted to buy a MacBook instead of laptops from other companies, is there any reason for him to give Linux a try? I just wanted to know that. So, obviously, the price and server capabilities of Linux do not play into the discussion at all. I repeat that it is NOT a Mac vs. Linux thread (and I won't start a full-fledged debate on that topic because I know little to nothing about Linux and there are only two Mac users here compared to the tens of Linux enthusiasts).

[mehulved]

Well I haven't used Mac but I don't think there's a central repository where you can access all or atleast most of the softwares? Like apt, yum, smart, ports in Linux and BSD's. Yeah they evolved out of the need for a package manager but still a central place for all the softwares you need is really good IMO.
Then for many people, it is really essential to know the source code of the software you use, that is the case in any open source OS but not in OS X.
Then compiling a kernel has really nice advantage performance wise. It was previously possible with a bit of help from Darwin project but it's not so possible now AFAIK. But, well these things are required by a small minority of people not a huge majority.
Then, it's customisation of the overall OS, now that's possible in linux distros like gentoo, LFS and all. But, no proprietory OS allow that.
And anyways there are a lot of open source softwares used by apple like cups for printing, konqueror engine for safari, apache is the inbuilt fileserver in Mac OS X. Both OS'es have different users with different needs. And maybe andy is the person who can be more helpful here cos AFAIK he's the only person who's used both OS'es extensively at home and all 3 if you count windows. He still needs to flirt around with windows everyday :p

[aryayush]

Well I haven't used Mac but I don't think there's a central repository where you can access all or atleast most of the softwares? Like apt, yum, smart, ports in Linux and BSD's. Yeah they evolved out of the need for a package manager but still a central place for all the softwares you need is really good IMO.There is a central location for all applications and it is called 'Applications'.

Then for many people, it is really essential to know the source code of the software you use, that is the case in any open source OS but not in OS X.Not for me, not for most home users (a person who doesn't know much programming anyway).

Then compiling a kernel has really nice advantage performance wise. It was previously possible with a bit of help from Darwin project but it's not so possible now AFAIK. But, well these things are required by a small minority of people not a huge majority.Not for home users again.

Then, it's customisation of the overall OS, now that's possible in linux distros like gentoo, LFS and all. But, no proprietory OS allow that.You might have a point there but I know of many people who complain that Gentoo has a huge number of very geeky options and is is almost unusable for a simple user. And OS X does offer a horde of customisations options. You can write your own AppleScripts or download them from the vast repository at Apple's website, tinker directly with Terminal or use Automator for creating automated workflows. Then there are a whole lot of applications out there that allow you to customise virtually every part of your operating system.

And anyways there are a lot of open source softwares used by apple like cups for printing, konqueror engine for safari, apache is the inbuilt fileserver in Mac OS X.And your point is?

Both OS'es have different users with different needs.I completely agree with you. However, I was always fiddling around with operating systems when I used Windows and I found some unique features in Linux distros that made me boot into them often. Then I bought the Macintosh and discovered this superb platform with a multitude of better features than Windows. However, I still installed OpenSUSE 10.1 to try it out and when it was complete, I launched it and then sat staring at the desktop. What do I do now? I could count many features that my Mac had and SUSE did not but a little bit of browsing around had me convinced that there wasn't a single reason for me to use SUSE except for novelty. And that is why I started this thread.

And maybe andy is the person who can be more helpful here cos AFAIK he's the only person who's used both OS'es extensively at home and all 3 if you count windows. He still needs to flirt around with windows everyday :pThat's great. Hope he shows up ASAP! :)

[mehulved]

There is a central location for all applications and it is called 'Applications'.

I am not talking of central location where all the downloaded applications are stored. I am talking about a central location from where you can download all the applications.

[mail2and]

I've used all 3 OSes. My favourite is Slackware(and its variants). No other OS runs so well on low system resources as Slackware does(Yeah, I know it's a distro).

Around 1.5 years ago, my computer was about to give in, and I started looking at different options. I had used OS X before but for a very brief period of time.

I looked at the Mac Mini at a dealer's place, and I decided that it'll be my next computer. I'm a person who values design as much as I value comp. features and specifications. For my use, even a P3 500 MHZ is more than enough(I've never played games in life. Besides, I'm not a 5 yr old kid).

After I bought my Mini and started using OS X on a more regular basis, I understood why OS X was rated so highly. I can say that I hadn't experienced true multi-tasking before.

Another aspect of OS X that I loved was the effective management of screen real estate. The top menu bar is dynamic i.e. it will change the options to the application in focus. This saves vertical screen space. Besides, having a menu bar in each application is plain ugly and inefficient.

The Dock is also a more effficient way of launching applications. There is no 'Start/Programs' menu in OS X. However, starting with Tiger(launched 1.5 yrs ago), OS X offers Spotlight(instant search). Press Command+Space and type the name of the app, and press enter. This takes lesser time in launching apps than it takes in the conventional 'Start/Programs' method. Most people use max 20 apps, and you can keep all of them on the dock itself.

Networking in OS X was a dream, too. When my cousin came around, I shared my PPPoE connection with him via Wi-fi. No setups, no configuration. The OS recognized his laptop, I clicked on 'share' and Bang! I was sharing internet with him in a matter of minutes. I call it the 1-2-3 method. No workgroups, no configuration, no 'network wizards'.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/8797/picture21ea8.jpg

Besides, you can compile and run most of the linux apps on OS X.

I'd again like to mention the existence of small, free apps on OS X. They're amazing. Examples include MacTheRipper, Adium, Burn, Cog, OnyX, Growl, Quicksilver(My fav application), Max, Menuet, Camino, Seashore etc.

OS X has had in-built system wide spell checker since ages. So, no matter whether you're chatting on yahoo, surfing on Adium, writing a doc on NeoOffice/ MS Office, the spell checker will check for save you the blushes!

Another interesting feature in Cocoa apps is horizontal scrolling. Click on shift and scroll normally. You'd be scrolling horizontally. So need no to click and drag those irritating horizontal scroll bars.

Safari, Camino and other OS X apps can auto-resize as per the dimensions of the page. No 'maximise, minimize' kind of thing.

Suppose, you're writing stuff for your project. You've got 5-6 apps open, and you need see a couple of them side by side. Expose comes in to your rescue here. Click on the middle mouse button and bang! Have a look.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9038/picture23cu6.th.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture23cu6.jpg)

Also, I like most ppl on OS X, don't maximise the window while browsing. It seemed strange at start, but now I can't surf with a window maximised.

I like the in-built pdf viewer, too. In short, the whole computing experience is nice and clean. And at last, ze eye candy :D

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/729/picture27es9.th.jpg (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture27es9.jpg)


However, OS X has its shortcomings, too. Finder is not as good as Konqueror is. It needs a whole new write-up. Java apps are not as responsive as they are on Windows. Also, OS X can't play DRM'ed WMA files. Though, I put the blame of the last thing on MS for not releasing an update to their WMP software for OS X.

I'll post more stuff as it comes to my mind. Till now, this discussion was mature and nice. Wait for the trolls. Then, it'll be time to lock the thread.

[busyanuj]

gaming can be the major factor for home users (essentially: gamers). choice of games available for mac is generally much much less as compared to the ones available for windows.

other than that, there'll always be many alternatives to windows softwares in linux as well as mac.

[mail2and]

other than that, there'll always be many alternatives to windows softwares in linux as well as mac.

And the other way around?

[busyanuj]

And the other way around?

oh andy ! never worry about that. if mac has the famous graphics, Microsoft's *originally* showing it in Vista as Aero+other changes :p

plus, there are a variety of themes and visual styles to give you the "mac feel" on windows ;)


...that's why i say, windows rox :D

[mail2and]

oh andy ! never worry about that. if mac has the famous graphics, Microsoft's *originally* showing it in Vista as Aero+other changes :p

plus, there are a variety of themes and visual styles to give you the "mac feel" on windows ;)


...that's why i say, windows rox :D

I meant software, not themes.

[busyanuj]

I meant software, not themes.

haven't used a mac, so i got nothing to say on that one.

[blackpearl]

Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.

The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.

The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.

The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.

MORAL: If you like travelling, get Windows.

[rakeshishere]

Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.

The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.

The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.

The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.

MORAL: If you like travelling, get Windows.

Nice Explaination But a Doubt:What if the Roads are worse like the Indian Roads:D

[blackpearl]

Nice Explaination But a Doubt:What if the Roads are worse like the Indian Roads:D

If you want to see the world, you have to take some pain :)

[mediator]

@blackpearl : U still living in ancient era?


The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.

Occassionaly? The car gives trouble wheneva u need to drive the car fast with full load and wanna reach the destination in time! The car can't be used even to drive 5 kms when its new. the company releases the spare parts and service packs, only then it can be run 100 kms, but then also "occasionally" gives problems. Also the car is armourless and has fragile wheels u need to install 3rd party armour and maintain it regularly (defragmentation,virus,spyware scans) ! Wheneva the company announces the next upgraded car it talks so much big, but when released it leaves its customer demoralised with only few of so many features talked about!

When the car is new u have to install its drivers,softwares explicitly,service packs(have to wait for that) and make it complete. That takes u like 2 days almost leaving u with dark circles on ur eyes!

Also u can't never trust that car, to run even 5 kms! Its performance also degrades when run quite a lot (fragmentation). To run windows car u need to grasp the steering wheel tightly and keep ur eyes straight on the roads be cautios at every turn n whereva u go. Since u don't have manuals regarding its source (closed source) u can neva repair that car urself when the car is down and stuck on a highway! Wait for one week or one month, sleep on the footpath, get frustrated n catch dengue before u get help!!


The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.

Its free, fully armoured and u can always trust ur car to drive around the world without any degradation in performance!!!!! Today the car has evolved a lot and is as easy as to run windows car!
Since the source is known u can repair it wheneva u want n that too urself, if it "eva" gets corrupt! Its well known that the linux car has a very low probability of getting corrupt! Even ur kid can drive it freely n be safe! If the kid meets with an accident, the armour and the engine is soooo strong that kid wont be hurt anyhow! The driving wheel is very easy to steer with just a fingertip!
Today the linux car runs almost on every road and u dont need any experience to run it!
There are 2 types of linux cars : free n propreitary
In Free ones, u need to instal some dependencies and 5-6 new components to make it complete and it takes u like 1-2 hrs!
Propreitary ones are complete, just buy them and drive at full speed!


Linux cars are like army tanks and windows cars are like auto wheelers. WHen they collide then its well known that windows cars will gets crushed easily!

Linux cars have a lotta other advantages, but the page is too small for that to decribe!


The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.

Then comes Mac cars! They r not free. What I have learnt, that they r much better in terms of security,stabilty n service than windows cars.

Given all that, even if this car is costly then also the customer will be thrilled by it and wud always want to buy it if he is given an option bet. windows and mac car resting side by side!

Linux car has a huge community support which is rising every single second! Since the majority of world is poor, this car is excellent for those poor people. Since the car is free n looks of this car is as good as windows, (in my opinion even better) it really thrills every one!

It makes the users especially of windows cars (windows fanboys) => jealous n mentally retards them. They then make ignorant and absurd statements with strong sarcasm in their statements n leaves users of linux and mac cars laughing at their schizophrenia and mental retardness!

Some windows car users get enlightened by other cars, but some windows car users become fanboys which degrades their thinking n leaves the world laughing at them! They keep on making absurd statements everywhere they go and make a mockery of themselves!

;)

Its upto u to chose ur car!

[kumarmohit]

@blackpearl : U still living in ancient era?


Occassionaly? The car gives trouble wheneva u need to drive the car fast with full load and wanna reach the destination in time! The car can't be used even to drive 5 kms when its new. the company releases the spare parts and service packs, only then it can be run 100 kms, but then also "occasionally" gives problems. Also the car is armourless and has fragile wheels u need to install 3rd party armour and maintain it regularly (defragmentation,virus,spyware scans) ! Wheneva the company announces the next upgraded car it talks so much big, but when released it leaves its customer demoralised with only few of so many features talked about!

When the car is new u have to install its drivers,softwares explicitly,service packs(have to wait for that) and make it complete. That takes u like 2 days almost leaving u with dark circles on ur eyes!

Also u can't never trust that car, to run even 5 kms! Its performance also degrades when run quite a lot (fragmentation). To run windows car u need to grasp the steering wheel tightly and keep ur eyes straight on the roads be cautios at every turn n whereva u go. Since u don't have manuals regarding its source (closed source) u can neva repair that car urself when the car is down and stuck on a highway! Wait for one week or one month, sleep on the footpath, get frustrated n catch dengue before u get help!!


Its free, fully armoured and u can always trust ur car to drive around the world without any degradation in performance!!!!! Today the car has evolved a lot and is as easy as to run windows car!
Since the source is known u can repair it wheneva u want n that too urself, if it "eva" gets corrupt! Its well known that the linux car has a very low probability of getting corrupt! Even ur kid can drive it freely n be safe! If the kid meets with an accident, the armour and the engine is soooo strong that kid wont be hurt anyhow! The driving wheel is very easy to steer with just a fingertip!
Today the linux car runs almost on every road and u dont need any experience to run it!
There are 2 types of linux cars : free n propreitary
In Free ones, u need to instal some dependencies and 5-6 new components to make it complete and it takes u like 1-2 hrs!
Propreitary ones are complete, just buy them and drive at full speed!


Linux cars are like army tanks and windows cars are like auto wheelers. WHen they collide then its well known that windows cars will gets crushed easily!

Linux cars have a lotta other advantages, but the page is too small for that to decribe!


Then comes Mac cars! They r not free. What I have learnt, that they r much better in terms of security,stabilty n service than windows cars.

Given all that, even if this car is costly then also the customer will be thrilled by it and wud always want to buy it if he is given an option bet. windows and mac car resting side by side!

Linux car has a huge community support which is rising every single second! Since the majority of world is poor, this car is excellent for those poor people. Since the car is free n looks of this car is as good as windows, (in my opinion even better) it really thrills every one!

It makes the users especially of windows cars (windows fanboys) => jealous n mentally retards them. They then make ignorant and absurd statements with strong sarcasm in their statements n leaves users of linux and mac cars laughing at their schizophrenia and mental retardness!

Some windows car users get enlightened by other cars, but some windows car users become fanboys which degrades their thinking n leaves the world laughing at them! They keep on making absurd statements everywhere they go and make a mockery of themselves!

;)

Its upto u to chose ur car!

LOL

Off goes the Linux bomb . Come on ppl this is a Windows vs Mac OS thread. Not here puhleez.


Anyway the only reason I think of switching from Mac OS to Windows is "Sheer Stupidity"

[aryayush]

LOL

Off goes the Linux bomb . Come on ppl this is a Windows vs Mac OS thread. Not here puhleez.No, it is not.
This thread is titled 'Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux' (I am extremely sorry for the typo). Please stick to the topic! To discuss Mac and Windows, go to 'Apple (Macintosh) vs. Microsoft (Windows) (http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37339)'.

Edit: Thanks to mail2and for changing the title! :)

[mail2and]

I request some moderator (mail2and) to please change the title to 'Reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux'. It was an absent-minded typo.

Done ;)

[aryayush]

Yeah, thanks again! :p

So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there? Why are you guys missing out on the fun? mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?

[mail2and]

there are only two Mac users here compared to the tens of Linux enthusiasts).

Mmm.. 4 users: Satissh owns a Mac Mini.

Milind(goobimama) is the rich guy with an iMac and an iBook :p

[aryayush]

Who is this Satissh? What is his username?
And I forgot goobimama when posting the thread. I know only three of us. I think kumarmohit might also be a Mac user.
__________
Anyway, would you mind answering this:mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?

[mail2and]

Yeah, thanks again! :p

So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there? Why are you guys missing out on the fun? mail2and, is there some Linux distro you prefer over Mac OS X? Is Slackware better, in your opinion? If yes, then can you please tell us the reasons?

Slackware is best for machines with less processing power. It's so configurable that you'd get lots of options at the installation stage itself.

You can use distros based on Slack. They're a bit simpler and smaller(fit in 1 CD).

Zenwalk is a nice distro based on Slack.

SLAX is the best live cd. ever.

However, I'd not advise using Linux instead of OS X because both feel similar! You can run most of the Linux programs on Mac using Fink (http://fink.sourceforge.net).

As you rightly said, the main argument of cost is not valid in your case, as you've already bought a MacBook and paid for Tiger.

The 'better for server' argument doesn't hold water either, as OS X has its own server version, too.

[goobimama]

another one of them Mac vs windows vs linux discussions eh? (even though arya did mention that it wasn't...). Waiting for gx to show up...

[aryayush]

Yes, it does but most people agree that Linux servers are better than XServes, thought I don't really agree. But anyway, the topic has no relation to this thread.
So, basically you agree that there is little to no reason for a Mac user to install Linux on their machines (unless it's for experimentation purposes). Mac offers all that Linux has in store and then some. Mac rules! :p ::self satisfied smug:: :p

[mail2and]

Yes, it does but most people agree that Linux servers are better than XServes

You can run OS X Server on any Mac, and not just XServes.

[mehulved]

@aryayush Satissh's username is Satissh S. And he extensively uses Mac and Linux.
And as for slackware it's really great for P II's and P III's, just see the server on which slackware's site is hosted, but that doesn't mean that it's not so great for today's PC's. It is just great no frills and highly configurable OS. But, it can be a bit intimidating for newbies. But, if you can learn slackware then you can learn linux really nicely.

[JGuru]

Mac, Linux and Windows are like cars.

The Windows Car cost a lot but easy to learn. Accessories also cost money and the car may occassionaly give trouble, but with it you can drive over 90% of the roads.

The Linux Car is Free and comes with a 10,000 page manual on "How to drive", without which you won't be able to steer even the driving wheel. With approximately 5 yrs of practice you can become a good driver and throw the manual out of the window. The Linux Car however runs in only 9% of the roads.

The Mac Car is the costliest, and easiest to drive too. Owing this car and buying accessories can lead you to bankruptcy. This car is the sleekest of all the 3, but it runs in less than 1% of the roads.

MORAL: If you like travelling, get Windows.

@Blackpearl, What you said about Linux is totally wrong!! There are more users
in this forum itself who are using Linux for past 5 or 6 months & they are very
comfortable with it.

[~Phenom~]

@Blackpearl, What you said about Linux is totally wrong!! There are more users
in this forum itself who are using Linux for past 5 or 6 months & they are very
comfortable with it.
I agree with JGURU.

[mediator]

So, what's with all the Linux hyper-enthusiasts out there?

Bro I told u there aren't many Linux users here who might have tried Mac. Andy says there are 4. SO, it wont be much of a interest if only 4 people are to be writing their experiences! U shud replace the "linux" in ur thread title to "Linux or Windows". It wud be fun if gx and others show up here. Believe me! They might say something of interest. For the time being since I dunno nething about MAC, I guess I'll be acting as an observer here tooo! :)

@Phenom : If I remember correctly, isn't ur uptime (experience) on Linux around 1-2 months ??

[aryayush]

You can run OS X Server on any Mac, and not just XServes.Yeah, I know that. Apache comes pre-installed on every Mac. But it is a general opinion that Linux is better suited for servers than Macs are.

[mail2and]

Yeah, I know that. Apache comes pre-installed on every Mac. But it is a general opinion that Linux is better suited for servers than Macs are.
Yeah. Cost plays a big factor in this. You'd not buy a Mac to run it as a server! That'll be a bit expensive to the hosting company.

[goobimama]

I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an update which would require restart).

But the the power went out (some problem with the inverter) and I had to shut it down. And during this entire 1.5 months, it didn't slow down even once. It was as if it was just started. That's one of the main things I like about the mac os.

Now I haven't used linux thaat much, but from what I've experienced, one has to run around looking for drivers for new hardware, have to run photoshop through WINE, and one's gotta learn some command line stuff. One things for sure though, if it wasn't for my family, the PC in the house would have had linux on it. They are a bit static when it comes to computer tech.

[aryayush]

I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an update which would require restart).

But the the power went out (some problem with the inverter) and I had to shut it down. And during this entire 1.5 months, it didn't slow down even once. It was as if it was just started. That's one of the main things I like about the mac os.Oh WOW! That just superb. Another testimony to the stability and speed of a Macintosh. My MacBook Pro generally has uptimes of 2-3 days before I have to shut it down for some reason or the other (load shedding, nothing to do, etc.). It never slows dows, that's for sure. :)

[mehulved]

I had a uptime for 7 months on linux before rebooting to install a second distro.
Well with linux either stability has never been a problem. And I have achieved that uptime with windows too. I guess any modern day OS can run continuously for 2-3 months without needing to be switched off.

[mediator]

I've had my Mac running 1.5 months straight, without a restart (even avoided an update which would require restart).

Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update? No restart in Linux after an update !! And 1.5 months is less I guess. Many linux PC's have an uptime of more than 3 months ! Forget about servers. And the performance doesn't degrades !!!!


one has to run around looking for drivers for new hardware

Not always! Not with the new distros today! The case is same even with windows that incompatabilites arises when hardware is latest. But resolved only after some updates!! Does Mac support different hardwares??


have to run photoshop through WINE

Yea, Adobe is unparalleled, no doubt!! But GIMP is really good, almost as good !! Check it out!


and one's gotta learn some command line stuff

Not anymore!! Neways commandline is a priviledge bro! It makes task much easier in some cases! Why do people always relate it do geek stuff?

[mail2and]

Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update?

It's a consumer OS, primarily. Their main focus is on stability rather than fancy uptimes. That is why, quite a lot of OS X updates that update the kernel require a restart. Updates to simple applications do not require a restart.

I don't think re-starting after updates is a big issue.

[mehulved]

It's ok if the restart is for a kernel. Even linux requires that. AFAIK all OS'es require that.

[mediator]

@Andy : If restart is restricted to kernel, then its fine! But believe me restarting all the time after normal updates other than kernel is a heck and very annoying as in windows!!

[mail2and]

@Andy : If restart is restricted to kernel, then its fine! But believe me restarting all the time after normal updates other than kernel is a heck and very annoying as in windows!!

Yeah, as an example, I just updated XII. It did not ask for a restart. Similarly, updates to iTunes(unlike WMP), Safari(unlike IE) and iLife apps do not require a restart. However, Quicktime does require a restart when updated. It's the only system software that require a restart.

It's just the 10.4.x updates that require a re-start(Released once in 2 months, on an average).

[mediator]

It's the only non-system software that requires a restart.

Its system software. Right??

[mail2and]

Its system software. Right??


Oops, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing out. :)

[aryayush]

Why does it need a restart like Windows after an update? No restart in Linux after an update !!Mac OS X requires a restart oly after a major operating system update or a firmaware update. No more and no less. And as tech_your_future confirmed, even Linux requires that.

And 1.5 months is less I guess. Many linux PC's have an uptime of more than 3 months ! Forget about servers. And the performance doesn't degrades !!!!He expressly stated that he had to shut the machine down due to a power cut. For all we know, it may have run for another year!

Not always! Not with the new distros today! The case is same even with windows that incompatabilites arises when hardware is latest. But resolved only after some updates!! Does Mac support different hardwares??Yeah, I do agree that hardware support in the various Linux distros is not a problem anymore. They support almost any sort of hardware you connect to them nowadays. Ubuntu even recognised the 'Eject' button on my MacBook Pro keyboard.
But Mac OS X isn't lagging in the department either; it supports virtually any piece of hardware out there. As yet, I have only connect four external devices to it but all four have worked flawlessly without requiring any manual installation of drivers. I have connected my Sony Ericsson W550i, LaCie 250GB external hard drive, Transcend 256MB USB drive and a Sony digital camera. On connecting the camera, iPhoto popped up in a flash and offered to import the photos for me. Ingenious!

and one's gotta learn some command line stuffNot anymore!!Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself. Linux distros are practically unusable if you want to do something even remotely advanced and don't want to be friendly with the Terminal. Just run a search for 'Linux tips' on Google; eight out of ten tricks require you to fire up the terminal. Browse through digit's occasional tips on Linux and you can find terminal commands everywhere. Basically, getting Linux to do anything that it doesn't do by default requires that you copy-paste code from the internet. And what happens when you make some severe mistake (and it is very likely for a newbie to make one) - the whole operating system comes crashing down without so much as a warning sign. I have a brother who has been trying to learn Linux and therefore, uses it on a regular basis. He manages to crash his OS every fortnight or so. When I asked him about it, he told me that it was due to his escapades with the Terminal. I told him to avoid using it and it was he who told me that it's impossible to avoid the Terminal on Linux. And here I am. I have been using the Mac for three months and I have never seen Terminal and I have done such hacks as changing my fans' speed to six times faster (6000 RPM) and install another windows manager (kind of like installing XGL/Compiz on Ubuntu - only much more easy and user-friendly).

Neways commandline is a priviledge bro! It makes task much easier in some cases! Why do people always relate it do geek stuff?That, my dear friend, is a poor excuse to defend one of Linux's glaring shortcomings and you are aware of that. If the command line interface had been a privilege, open source coders wouldn't have been working their a**es off trying to improve the GUI and make it more user-freindly to try and avoid situations where a simple home user has to resort to the Terminal way of doing things. And the word 'command' and 'easy' simply don't belong in the same sentence! :p

[mediator]

@aryayush : Hey calm down man! Atleast don't forget the etiquettes to debate here now! I hope u know how I can debate then! There r somethings I'm learning about MAC here n somethings I'm telling u from mah personal experiences on Linux. In between I'm not lying newhere n not "kidding" newhere!! I hope u understand such simple things! Don't u??

I guess ur ignorant about Linux usage to some extent n have low experience on it! Have u checked out new Ubuntu?? Everything can be installed with "Synaptic Package Installer"! Try it n then tell, n then to ur brother too!

There r different Linux distros suited to different people! There r extremely geeky people who like to use Gentoo and then newbies like ur brother who have Ubuntu as their friend! Recommend him Ubuntu. @Jguru says Mandriva2007 is even easier than Ubuntu!! So no commandlines! And I'm certainly not "kidding"!


And what happens when you make some severe mistake (and it is very likely for a newbie to make one) - the whole operating system comes crashing down without so much as a warning sign

Pure Carelessness! Tell him that there exist something called "sudo" n use that instead the "su"! Carelessness using root can destroy any OS! And in Linux u don't need the root to do normal kinds of activities and even to install softwares! U can live by the "make" thing! "Make Install" is to bring it in commandline.The code compiled on ur machine is best for it. I hope u'll agree. Does MAc allows to compile the code on ur machine? Giving u best performance?? Now I know u'll argue that it is part of commandline. So for the GUI thing u have Rpm's and deb files. Just click em and install it like windows setup files!


That, my dear friend, is a poor excuse to defend one of Linux's glaring shortcomings and you are aware of that. If the command line interface had been a privilege, open source coders wouldn't have been working their a**es off trying to improve the GUI and make it more user-freindly to try and avoid situations where a simple home user has to resort to the Terminal way of doing things. And the word 'command' and 'easy' simply don't belong in the same sentence!

Its not a poor excuse mah friend. Its a fact. Most of the things today u can do from commandline to make ur living/working n this free OS, u can do that via GUI too! But there are some concepts like pipelining etc (I hope u know what they r) that can be done only from commandline and I hope MAC supports that from commandline!
Pipelining is a simple concept and a very helpful concept in doing things as quickly as u want like 1. copying the output of a command to a file, 2. searching for specific strings in one go etc! I hope u understand what I'm saying! These things can be done from GUI too, but then for like 2. u open the word editor, open the file and then search the string in it! So lengthy task isn't it?? Try it n u'll know what i mean!!

Similarly for downloading stuff I find commandline much better than all the windows and Linux download accelerators (GUI stuff). Just press "ctrl+shift+n", name the command n put address to it, n then bingo, better speeds n less system resources consumed. Better speeds becoz thats what I ave noticed both in Fedora n Ubuntu! Now for Gui, u go to menu bar, click on icon the app takes some 5 seconds to load (My pc is old) and then type the address in it and then download. It will hog system resources too!
Now u may argue that y u have to type coz u want to show MAC is better in ur new found excitement. Then to tell u, u can copy n paste too! Ofcors u can.

So u see, in todays Linuxes u can live without commandline. Its a priviledge to use it though! Most people use it because it can make ur task done in a very short time! If u don't understand the advantages of commandline in some cases like pipelining that can make ur computing much efficient than ofcors no one can help u to see things correctly! Try pipelining in MAC if it is there n then tell, if u like it or dislike it!

I'm not a geek and dont install linuxes every 6 months to see the beauties in next updgraded distro. But I want easyness and convenience. I know how to compute and I know which is the best way to do it! The concept of commandline is similar to using "Ctrl c", "ctrl V" instead of right clicking the mouse and selecting copy, paste from it! I hope ur clear by now!


So doood, I'm not "kidding"! I'm not debating here on something on which I'm ignorant and u shudn't do that either coz then u'll leave no difference between u n gx! U shudn't debate when u have low experience on any OS. I guess u have negligible on Linux OS. I can understand ur excitement for MAC n can clearly see from ur attitudes n nature here, the reason for which u opened this thread! But don't let that excitement make u a fanboy n prevent u to see the fact! I cud have mocked u badly for ur ignorant views about commandline. But since I'm learning about Mac here as an observer, then may be u shud learn about Linux too in OPen source!

I'm trying to debate here as humbly as I can . So don't put words in mah mouth by talking absurd n ignorant n behaving like gx!! And I'm certainly not "kidding"!! ;)

In here I have talked about free distros, n I hope u know about propreitary ones!

[mehulved]

Well whether CLI is good or bad is just a perception of different people. To each his own.

[aryayush]

@aryayush : Hey calm down man! Atleast don't forget the etiquettes to debate here now! I hope u know how I can debate then!Hey, I never get riled up on online forums and never lose my cool. And why would I do so here? You are posting your opinions and I am posting mine - each in a friendly manner. :)
I always try to use friendly emoticons to denote that I am replying cheerfully but I don't know why some people unnecessarily get all worked up (and I am not pointing towards anyone in particular). :D

[mediator]

^^ I hope u be friendly!


Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself.


You are posting your opinions and I am posting mine

For the first quote, These kinda statements shudn't be posted unless ur 100% sure of what ur talking abt!

Also, U told the experience of ur brother n not ur experience on Linux. May I know why? So from second quote, ur definitely not talking about ur views (opinion) ! U have formed ur views (opinion) based on views of some other person. In this case ur brother! Don't get offended, but how sane is that in a debate n talking about other's views n not ur views?

So the second quote definitely contradicts ur earlier posts! And I don't see u posting ur opinions well!

Likewise I can also say absurdly that mah friend said Mac is good for nothing and is a trash n a waste of money! How sane wud it be? I hope u got mah point!

So I hope that from now onwards, u really put ur views here and not ur brother's or someone else's!! :)

[aryayush]

LOL! That was the funniest post ever.

I am short of experience on the Linux platform, which is why I started this topic, so it's is totally reasonable that I post experiences of others whom I am in contact with. And it is the truth. I don't see the harm in voicing the troubles one cousin of mine is facing on this forum.

U have formed ur views (opinion) based on views of some other person. In this case ur brother!Doesn't everyone do that? Is it not normal? If your doctor tells you you have a stone in your kidney, will you cut it open yourself so that you can form your own opinion? You can't be everything and you can't experience everything - so you have to take others' word for it. It's perfectly normal behaviour, mate! You, for example, have never used a Macintosh but if someone asks you about it, you will surely quote some of points made by the likes of mail2and, goobimama and me. Why? Because we live in a social environment and have to depend on a lot of other people. :)

You find the statement, "Oh c'mon! Don't kid yourself." less than friendly? You are being oversensitive, friend.

And you want to hear my experiences with Linux, right? Well, here goes. I don't remember which distro it was but the first Linux distro I ever tried had a KDE desktop. It installed properly and I had no problems whatsoever with it. However, when it first ran, it did not recognise my mouse. I tried to navigate it with the keyboard for a while but knowing nothing about Linux and without any knowledge of the keyboard shortcuts, it was pretty useless. I uninstalled it.
The next one I tried started installing fine but stuck midway while trying to configure my CD-ROM. I tried the installation quite a few times but in vain.
Then I tried Ubuntu and Kubuntu. Both had to be started in safe graphics mode but they installed and worked fine but try as I might, they would not connect to the internet. (And you call Linux VERY easy? Why is there a topic in this forum itself dedicated to connecting DataOne on a GNU/Linux desktop? Why does doing such a simple thing require help on Linux?) Their 64-bit versions just stuck on the first loading screen which has the logo and never even started with the installation on my friend's 64-bit PC (and it is my opinion because I was doing the installation for him, or at least trying to).
Then I tried OpenSUSE. The installation worked after three tries but worked smoothly in the third try. However, the partition setup was a pain in the a**. When everything was installed properly, I booted it up and after a lot of greek lines of text, it showed a loading screen for a long time - and then everything became haywire. You ever seen a TV with malfunctioning antennae? It strongly resembled that.
Now, I tried to install OpenSUSE on my MacBook Pro. It installed and worked fine on Parallels. Then I made a partition for it on the hard drive and tried to install it. It never moved past the partition screen. I tried Ubuntu and it completely messed everything up. I tried to install it on my external hard drive and it formatted my whole drive even though I had clearly selected the option of resizing it (but I had made a backup, so I did not lose my 70+ GB of data). I tried to install it alongside the Windows installation on the internal hard drive and it first formatted the drive and removed Windows (contrary to what I had asked it to do again) and then told me that it was not possible to install it. Why, in the name of Merlin, couldn't it have provided me with that helpful information BEFORE formatting the drive? Or better still, why couldn't it have left the Windows installation alone!
And why does every Linux installation take so much time to bootup and shut down? There appears a lot of text telling you that everything is OK, OK, OK, Enabled, etc. It is very very irritating.

That, my dear friend, is my story about my Linux experiences. It is not exactly a bed of roses. Some of it must have been my fault but the fact remains, that Linux has still a long way to go before it becomes truly user-friendly. People should not have to take a backup of their hard drive before trying to install Linux on it. You may say that all this happened because I am a newbie and must have made some mistakes, well, I am a newbie to the Macintosh too but it has never formatted any of my drives against my wishes, network connection was a snap, sharing that connection with Linux and Windows was equally easy, the mouse has never stopped functioning, there have been no distorted screens and no trouble at all, in fact.
But it does not mean that I don't like Linux or will never try it again. I genuinely appreciate what the open source community has managed to achieve with Linux and the advancements (such as XGL/Compiz) today are really mind-blowing. But when there is a discussion between which is better: Mac or Linux, you know what I will opt for. It is simply THE best platform for computing IMHO. It has brains and brawn too!

[mediator]

I simply told that you need 2GB of RAM if you want to run Parallels properly. It is a software that allows you to run Windows or Linux on a Macintosh simultaneously along with Mac OS X. Apart from that, it is pretty content even with 512MB of RAM. Of course, the more you throw at it, the more snappier it'll be, as any OS will and should.

I didn't ask about running parallels or running Linux and windows as guest OS on mac. I asked about running MAc on Vmware and parallels. And u said nething below 2 GB wont do justice! So can I run MAc on VMware and parallels with Xp or Linux as HOST OS with my currently 512 MB RAM?


Because having to install the operating system is part and parcel of the end-user experience. I don't know about you but I always prefer to install any OS on my machine myself. Maybe you are a lazy goon who thinks he is above such menial tasks, but I am not.

Awww! Its not me who thinks that installation is not a work of end-users buddy! But its the world of computer engineering, the IEEE representation and the world of software engineering that thinks so!
There are many type of users :

1. End-users
2. System maintainers
3. Developers
4. Testers and unit installers

So If u have read the books or have even a little bit of knowledge in the world of computing u'll probably know what I'm talking about!

U started the thread about end-users buddy, so don't mix the tasks of various users. Just talk about end-users.

As for the highlighted part, that again ur ignorance! So read the books n then tell what is part n parcel n of what!! Please don't give ur expert comments specially in the field of software engineering!


As if I did not post my own opinion! As if there is something wrong with posting someone else's opinion! As if you never quote another person when posting on this forum itself!

Still talking rubbish?? Even when I enlightened u about ur own absurd doctor's example?? Now who won't get piised off with these kinda thought of urs??
I tried to make u understand n requested u to have ur own independent personal outlook. But then, I can't help u beyond that.
Try debating like that with ur views based on other's view in each n every debate in real life. At the end of such debates u'll always remember me n that I warned u of having such mindset!! U'll know in ur life when u grow mature what I'm talking about!

As for highlighted part, I never do that without experiencing the scenario myself or if the person is professional enough to be trusted not like ur noobi brother. I told u shud have brains to judge to whom to follow n whose words to take. U like to repeat statements n make others repeat too. Don't u??


Just because I am not as well acquainted with it as with Windows or Macintosh, does not mean that I am ignorant about it. And if I not well acquainted with it, the reason is that I never quite managed to get it working perfectly on my machine which prevented me from using it for long periods.

It seems u have habit of eating cooked food! If so then try propreitary linux, that shud close ur mouth completely!
If u value money try fedora 6 or Ubunty edgy or mandriva 2007! It will take u like 1-2 hrs to make ur system complete with all the entertainment softwares + propreitary codecs installed. AS for the ease its there.

And dood acquaintance is of 2 type : practical n theoretical. Theoretical acquantance don't count in such debates ( I hope I don't have to elaborate this for u now. Even gx wud wud understand this ) . That leaves practical acquaintance and since u have not used linux personally for long periods n dont have well practical acquaintance then that certainly means ur ignorant about it.

Now check what I said n what u have written absurd! I have given proof of ur absurdness. I dont call neone absurd talker for no reason.


I am not sitting out here to entertain thy holy highness!

Thanx for the complement. Thats the best complement :)


NEWSFLASH: My cousin gave me the verdict that Linux wasn't very user-friendly and I tried it out - guess what, this amazing thing happened - I agreed with his opinion!

:D NEWSFLASH : My 4 yr old little sister asks me all the time "What to do?" when she sits on MAC. What u think I shud do?? Tell the world that MAC is not userfriendly or educate her??


Yeah, I can surely see that. Friendliness is bursting out of you!

Thanx!



You know what, you have a twisted mentality. If you don't know something about a subject, you should admit it (as I did) and you should speak out your opinions and listen to others too. That is, if you want to learn about the subject at hand.

Can't u read English?? Or someone here told u that mah post is written in Farsi n u believed him again? I already told plethora of times I'm learning about MAC here n as highlighted I already admitte it. Well who's having twisted mentality that everybody can surely see here!

Sooo u give ur opinions without getting acknowledged and enlightened about the subject???? U must be the first one dood. U surely amuse me! Can't mock u further here now! U just crossed the threshold of insanity giving new records!


Are you blind? No seriously, do have some severe physical or mental problem? I expressly mentioned that I have installed Ubuntu/Kubuntu many times, don't you understand such a simple thing.

And where did I stated that u installed it only one time???? Are you blind? No seriously, do have some severe physical or mental problem? Can't u understand n see such a simple thing?? U need a glass of water boy! First ur talking ignorant n absurd n then speaking further to support it! U'll get terribly mocked. I request u to stop ur words here only!




As for the Macintosh, they are not supposed to be installed on ordinary PCs because Apple has restricted that. It is supposed to be installed only on Apple hardware and it does that perfectly. It gets installed in six clicks of the mouse - just six clicks. Of course you can't expect that from Linux because it is made to cater to every sort of configuration, but it should at least get installed without harming the user's precious data.

What r ordinary PC's man?? PIII's?? Do u need a super computer to install MAC?? Do u need to be rich?? The supporting platforms by an OS also marks the improvement of an OS my friend!! Now what will u say?? That u don't believe that outta ur ignorance??
Study software engineering,IEEE etc. U'll know what I'm saying n then tell what u believe!




It was pre-installed but I have installed it myself too.

Seriously??


Yes, and I am not in the habit of doing that either. I clearly read all the options, went through instructions from online sources too before doing the partitioning. And I have installed Windows (98, XP and Vista) more times than I care to count but I never had a problem with the partitioning of my drives. I am quite adept at doing it. And if some OS made it difficult for me to get the partitioning correct, it is the operating system's fault, not mine.

U failed even after reading online instructions?? :shock: . Now that raises questions on ur intellect!! That u can't even follow simple online instructions! Neways if MAc was easy to install for u then Fedora 5 n Ubuntu 5.10 n Ubuntu Edgy were easy for me!
Ofcors problems exist everywhere n solving those problems (even the simplest ones) only makes u efficient in computing.



Hey, piss off man! What sort of a sickly retarded person are you anyway? I don't have a problem with Linux, OK? And I don't need to lie about anything to prove anything - and specially to people like you! And what's up with bringing gxsaurav up in every single post? Why do carry grudges with you all over the place? I bet you even tell your friends about how you had a fight on an online forum and gloat about it. You are re-defining the word 'sadist'!

Calm down man, I don't need to tell mah friends that the world is filled with morons like one I'm debating! There better things in to talk about. We like to enlighten each other practically n we don' make ignorant and absurd statements!
World is filled with people who can't classify n like to follow others n believe wateva other's say. I don't have time to talk about such trash people!


No, I don't. It is Apple's policy and they are free to practise it. It is how they ensure that their customers get a fully compatible and rock-solid operating system, fine-tuned relationship between the hardware and software and they have to sell their hardware too.

Now thats an example of fanboyism!! Talk about end-users experience buddy, why r making pathetic excuses outta topic??


And who gives you the right to judge whether I had used my brains or not?

Ur symptoms are judging u!! Do u ask the same question to doctor also?? Now what will u say "I'm a doctor"??? :D


What do you think of yourself anyway? You think only you are sane here, only you got a brain, sicko?

Give as much personal comments as u want and u'll see I'm indeed friendly!!


The last thing I need to learn from you is vocabulary. I have never commented on it but your language sucks, man. Every post you make is riddled with grammatical and usage flaws. I can whip your a** right off you if you want to take me head-on is a competition of language skills. Bring it on, su**er!

Where are the topic related replies man?? U can't provoke me like that! Neways when ur dad requests u to talk and act sanely, u reply him as highlighted?? :D


I have tried Ubuntu 6.10 and OpenSUSE 10.1. So don't speak about things you are not sure of (as you have kindly advised me tens of times in your previous post)

I expected such reply. Seeing all ur posts neone,even a kid can decide how honest n sure u r!


Not only is that a very un-gentlemanly post with lots of insults and harsh words, it is very repetitive too! If you had to scream your guts out at someone, couldn't you at least have come up with a few more and better words? Is that the best you can do? Shame on you!
If you scour through every post I have ever made on any online forum (barring this post), you won't come up with as many expletives as you have used in one single post. I think it is perfectly justified if I have gone a bit overboard with the strong words in this post, given your response to my polite posts and I do not give a damn if any action is taken against me due to this post!

Where is the topic related posts man??


Since these are the only few lines in your previous post which sound as if they were written by a normal human being, I would like to congratulate you for these!

Now, I was very friendly and I spoke politely but when you call a person stupid (or his opinion absurd) fifty times in a single post (now don't count it up and post the exact figure in the next post and claim that it wasn't fifty!), you lose the right to be respected yourself!

Thanx for the personal comments!

Neways for each n every absurd post of urs I have given the proof and showed u where u were acting ignorant. Also I didn't explicitly said that u were stupid. But I guess u desperately and affirmly want me to say that!


And how many times u saw that finger before u posted it there for others to see it?? Very amusing! Entertain me more!

;)

[mail2and]

Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.

Secondly, I used Linux before I bought my Mac Mini. I can install Ubuntu, whereas my father can not. Linux, as a whole, is coming up in a big way, but saying that it is as user-friendly as other OSes is wrong. You might understand Unix, but in an non-IT office, why would you want some one to use the terminal, even if it is for 1 command.

As for Mac installation, no you don't need to understand partitioning. OS X makes the whole disk a single partition, as a default. So, people who don't understand stuff, and have no reason to either, can install OS X without a problem. OS X is designed in such a way that a joe user can do anything without ever knowing what the terminal is, while an advanced user can use the terminal to do every thing. Linux is getting there, which is commendable for a community-based OS, but the fact remains that it is not there, yet.

Don't believe me? Ask GNUrag.

The installation is as simple as Next/Next/Next. Someone had posted OS X installation screenshots in Digit.

I found your point that OS X takes more RAM on a virtual machine very strange. First, you are not supposed to install it on a virtual machine. It is illegal. Second, it is true of every OS. This is because you're running an OS on top of another OS. I've run OS X natively on a HP laptop(don't ask me how), and it ran perfectly well on Celeron M 1.4 ghz and 224 mb ram(32 mb shared with vid card).

[aryayush]

I bet you have a penguin idol in your house and you pray in front of it everyday, don't you, mediator?

All of mail2and's points are true and exactly what I was trying to tell you. If you have a problem with his post too, go ahead, flame him too - let's see how much pleasure you can juice out of it!

Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.Yes, but they do sell Mac OS X, iLife, iWork and Final Cut Studio Pro seperately too, andy. Of course, it is ony permissible to be installed on Apple hardware.

[mediator]

Hi @andy

Firstly, mediator I'd like to point out that Apple does not sell you the software. They're primarily a hardware company, and they bundle an OS with their hardware.

I hope aayush can enlighten me like that!


Secondly, I used Linux before I bought my Mac Mini. I can install Ubuntu, whereas my father can not. Linux, as a whole, is coming up in a big way, but saying that it is as user-friendly as other OSes is wrong. You might understand Unix, but in an non-IT office, why would you want some one to use the terminal, even if it is for 1 command.

I understand! @Andy the picture of linux u have formed in ur mind is of free Linux isn't it? Now if u want something for free, u ofcors have to do a little hardwork to make it complete. And spending 1-2 hrs to make it complete isn't too much I guess. Now tell me have u ever used propreitary linux so as to say the same??
As for the higlighted part thats the case with not only with ur father but almost everyone's father! Honestly tell if ur father can install even Windows?? Almost everyone's father today depend on their kids today for the installation part! Ur 20 yrs of age. ANd Most of Today's fathers for our generation aren't used to computing well. My father knows only MS-Word,shutting windows down and starting it up! I hope u understand!
Next the picture of mah BBA friend. He ask me to install even windows for him! :oops:
I agree Linux is coming up in a big way. And most people who like to experiment with OSs are people like us! But in the past 3 yrs I find the Linux installation has become extremely easy! Check out in open source, many people today say its a piece of cake! Its my own judgement that the installation part has improved dramatically!
As for the commandline I already discussed that with aryayush who njoyed by replying with personal comments instead! PLease do reply to what I said about commandline!


As for Mac installation, no you don't need to understand partitioning. OS X makes the whole disk a single partition, as a default. So, people who don't understand stuff, and have no reason to either, can install OS X without a problem. OS X is designed in such a way that a joe user can do anything without ever knowing what the terminal is, while an advanced user can use the terminal to do every thing. Linux is getting there, which is commendable for a community-based OS, but the fact remains that it is not there, yet.

Most linux installations make "whole disk a single partition, as a default". Most becoz I'm not aware about other distros! They might be doing the same. So whats the difference between that and MAC's installation?? AS for the rest I have already discussed that in context of commandline! Do reply to that! All u said is same with today's linux, but neways do reply to what I said earlier!


Don't believe me? Ask GNUrag.

About Linux or Mac? If its for Linux then any person who has used modern Linux distro wud say the same as I'm doing! Gnurag wud do the same. I'm well experienced on Linux. Why shud I consult other person neways?? If ur talking about MAC, then no need for that. I believe u!

Neways I hope that atleast u know the classification of the user category and I hope u know that installation part isn't the task of end-users whose experience this thread is dedicated to.


The installation is as simple as Next/Next/Next. Someone had posted OS X installation screenshots in Digit.

Well the Ubuntu installation is also next next next if u want the whole hdd to be made as single partition.


I found your point that OS X takes more RAM on a virtual machine very strange.

Nope thats not my point. Thats what aryayush told me when I asked him in WIn Vs mac debate! Read it!


First, you are not supposed to install it on a virtual machine. It is illegal.

It may be illegal. But I just wanna know if it can be installed or not!


I've run OS X natively on a HP laptop(don't ask me how), and it ran perfectly well on Celeron M 1.4 ghz and 224 mb ram(32 mb shared with vid card).

That's not fair now! I wanna experience OS X too. So educate me with the "how" part! I wud prefer installation on VMWare!


@aayush :D


I bet you have a penguin idol in your house and you pray in front of it everyday, don't you, mediator?

Now thats nice, after such debates mediator is coming in ur nightmares tooooo that u see him with a penguin idol?? That really amuses me. Nemore story to tell?? Please write some 10-20 stories like this one in ur next post. Thanx for entertaining me. Please continue.


All of mail2and's points are true and exactly what I was trying to tell you. If you have a problem with his post too, go ahead, flame him too - let's see how much pleasure you can juice out of it!

Thats a nice one! Where did I started flaming bro?? Can u quote to prove ur words??
Do u find words like "absurd,ignorant" offensive????? Have u ever debated with ur teacher or father or neone in real situation???? U'll find these words very common. Do u watch TV debates atleast?? Ur ignorant about debates too!!

Now in those debates with ur father, teacher n neone try using words "U must be kidding" n wateva u used in successive posts. DOn't know about "neone" but ur father n teacher will surely leave u with black eyes and red face without teeth!

If u have a little bit brains, u'll probably understand what I'm talking about!!


Yes, but they do sell Mac OS X, iLife, iWork and Final Cut Studio Pro seperately too, andy. Of course, it is ony permissible to be installed on Apple hardware.

Means extra money has to be shelled out for some additional software?? like MS??

So @aryayush, If u ever go mature n come out of ur world of childishness then please do reply from my posts in which u ignorantly n absurdly thought that words like "absurd,ignorant" are offensive!

[mail2and]

Next the picture of mah BBA friend. He ask me to install even windows for him! :oops:

Well, I'm a B.com guy.

Most linux installations make "whole disk a single partition, as a default". Most becoz I'm not aware about other distros! They might be doing the same. So whats the difference between that and MAC's installation?? AS for the rest I have already discussed that in context of commandline! Do reply to that! All u said is same with today's linux, but neways do reply to what I said earlier.

Well, you've to install OS X to know the difference ;) I've installed Slackware, Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows, Linspire, Mandriva, Lycoris and Zenwalk . I can tell you that OS X installation was by far the simplest. As I said, search for Tiger installation screenshots. You'll get quite a few on the web.


That's not fair now! I wanna experience OS X too. So educate me with the "how" part! I wud prefer installation on VMWare!

It's a bit of a pain. I forgot how to install(Well over 1.5 yrs ago). You can find the vmware image on torrent sites. The install guides had been taken down quite a while back.

Means extra money has to be shelled out for some additional software?? like MS??

Apple give iLife and OS X free with Macs. Some movies edited/made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA110506.2R.themacguy.188d302.html

As for Final Cut Pro, it's a professional video editing software, which is used by movie studios. It's not meant for an individual. *

[mediator]

Well, I'm a B.com guy.

My point was that people are scared to install the so called "most user friendly and easy OS". They find problems in that too !


Well, you've to install OS X to know the difference I've installed Slackware, Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows, Linspire, Mandriva, Lycoris and Zenwalk . I can tell you that OS X installation was by far the simplest. As I said, search for Tiger installation screenshots. You'll get quite a few on the web.

U may be right. I don't question that! But very very easy and easy are different things. If noobies n other people can install Ubuntu n all the distros u said without any hint or help, then don't u think its easy enough??

Linux is primarily a server OS n developing fast into a desktop OS. It may even beat MAC OS X in "very very friendliness" thing in near future witnessing the huge improvements done in last 3 yrs alone! But if noobies n other people say that today's Linux is as easy as windows or even easier than windows, then don't u think thats a big complement to OSS developers??? Don't u thinks thats easy enough?? MAc may be easier, but today Linux is easy too!


It's a bit of a pain. I forgot how to install(Well over 1.5 yrs ago). You can find the vmware image on torrent sites. The install guides had been taken down quite a while back.

Please hand over the guides if u find them! ;)


Apple give iLife and OS X free with Macs. Some movies edited/made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. http://www.mysanantonio.com/business...y.188d302.html

As for Final Cut Pro, it's a professional video editing software, which is used by movie studios. It's not meant for an individual. *

Yea that comes in cost part! But u can't deny that this scenario resembles to that of MS. Neways we r discussing about end-users experience as requested by aayush and defied by himself who talked further than end-user thing!

[JGuru]

@Mediator, Here is the Mac OS X v10.4 Installation & setup Guide Click here (http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Tiger_Install_Setup_Guide.pdf)
I agree with @Andy here. Mac OS X is the most easiest O.S to install of all the O.Ss
including Windows & Linux!! One of my friends has a Mac. Linux installation is also
getting more simpler with each release. You can see in this forum itself, lots of Linux
noobs installing Linux with little help.

[mediator]

It may be easy, I'm not at all questioning that! But just trying to remove the myths people have about Linux today. And thats what I said, Linux is getting easy that even noobies r njoying it!

[aryayush]

@Mediator, Here is the Mac OS X v10.4 Installation & setup Guide Click here (http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Tiger_Install_Setup_Guide.pdf)That guide won't help him. It is the one Apple officially distributes for installing Mac OS X on Apple hardware.
mediator needs the guide made by people who manage to get Mac OS X running on regular PCs.
__________
It may be easy, I'm not at all questioning that! But just trying to remove the myths people have about Linux today. And thats what I said, Linux is getting easy that even noobies r njoying it!If you remember it, the discussion centered around which was easier, not whether Linux is easy or not.

[mediator]

@aryayush :D

mediator needs the guide made by people who manage to get Mac OS X running on regular PCs.

Correct if it can be done or else for VMWARE!


If you remember it, the discussion centered around which was easier, not whether Linux is easy or not.

Correct! Knowing that u defied ur own request?? Read the previous posts if u forgot what I'm talking about!
Neways u commented nothing about my reply for commandline except for personal comments ofcors!

[mehulved]

@aryayush. Ubuntu has warned that defualt partitioning formats the entire disk. Well all the OS'es I know of do that. From what Andy said, I got that even Mac does that. And even windows does that AFAIK.
But, you can do manual partitioning and tell it which partition to format, which not to, which to mount, where to mount and all. Installer won't touch that partition otherwise.
@mediator please leave gx out of this discussion, he's not here and anyways there's no talk of windows here.
GNU/Linux has an aim of being user friendly, but the thing is that these distros are released by the community. And on what basis are these communities formed? Mostly these people are Free Software entusiasts, who don't really prefer any proprietory softwares in the distros. So, what you have is a distro lacking of some commonly used proprietory softwares. So, it will make life difficult for the end users. And the community is not going to change this stance and compromise with the proprietory software makers just for a short term goal of increasing the user base. Rather they will stick to something that has got the linux where it is today - the opening of the source. In FLOSS community, the openness of the source is one of the biggest things and it makes a lot of sense. As of what I have read about the history of computers, the earliest years where computers were evolving, code sharing was the main reason the use of computers could become widespread. If in the earlier years, the codes of those softwares would have been hidden we'd never have a computer industry so wide spread.
One of the most common example I give is tcp protocol. tcp protocol was released under BSD license so everyone could freely use it, see it's source and modify it as per their liking. Now, MS has taken up that code, made changes and is trying to put up it's proprietory code of the tcp protocol as defualt so it can edge others out of the competition. Something of a similar sort is going on with ssl, again under BSD license.
I know this is quite off topic. But, the point I am trying to make is that proprietory softwares are a big hurdle in the way of development of linux or any open source OS. Whereas MS and Apple don't have to face it, since they have no such policy.

[mediator]

^^^^ AHhh correct! I shudn't have done that. :oops: I apologize to gx for that!
__________
Since we don't have many MAC users here, I feel some sources shud be attached to this thread matching its meaning! I hope aayush consents that!
Here are some recent MAC and linux threads I found where people posted their experiences!

http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2004/02/open_source_vs_mac_vs_windows.html
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9590_22-5406365.html
http://sekhon.berkeley.edu/macosx/

The authors have posted their experiences followed by others who have commented on that and gave their experiences as well.
Please do find such recent sources n post it here if u like the idea! :)

[aryayush]

@aryayush. Ubuntu has warned that defualt partitioning formats the entire disk. Well all the OS'es I know of do that. From what Andy said, I got that even Mac does that. And even windows does that AFAIK.
But, you can do manual partitioning and tell it which partition to format, which not to, which to mount, where to mount and all. Installer won't touch that partition otherwise.I had very clearly instructed it to 'resize' my entire 250GB disk into two partitions: 200GB with the FAT32 that already existed and 50GB for Linux. The installer specifically said that the existing contents won't be harmed during the resizing but still advised me to make a backup. I quit the intallation and made a backup, just in case. And I selected the same options again during installation and it formatted the whole drive and did not even make the two partitions I had requested.
Then I tried to install it on my MBP's internal drive and it erased the Windows installation and THEN told me that Ubuntu could not be installed.
I am not stupid and I know that I did not make ANY mistake. I have installed Ubuntu on my PC in the past alongside Windows and I had configured everything correctly and got Ubuntu installed and working successfully (except the networking part), so I do have past experiences to fall back on.

[gxsaurav]

although, i m not taking part in this debate...but aryaush, i don't think u can make a FAT32 partition bigger then 32GB in both Mac & Windows....maybe u can in linux, but thats hardly possible, so how did u managed to make a 200 GB FAT32 partition in Mac/Windows

[aryayush]

First of all, the drive was formatted in the FAT32 format by default. But I have myself done it using Mac too. It is as simple as launching 'Disk Utility', selecting the 'Erase' tab, selecting 'MS-DOS File System' from the 'Volume Format:' drop-down menu, giving it a name and hitting return.

Click on the thumbnail to view the screenshot:
http://www.tachypic.com/thumb/2601.jpeg (http://www.tachypic.com/view/2601)
Note the format and capacity in the information bar at the bottom of the window. :)

[mehulved]

I had very clearly instructed it to 'resize' my entire 250GB disk into two partitions: 200GB with the FAT32 that already existed and 50GB for Linux. The installer specifically said that the existing contents won't be harmed during the resizing but still advised me to make a backup. I quit the intallation and made a backup, just in case. And I selected the same options again during installation and it formatted the whole drive and did not even make the two partitions I had requested.
Then I tried to install it on my MBP's internal drive and it erased the Windows installation and THEN told me that Ubuntu could not be installed.
I am not stupid and I know that I did not make ANY mistake. I have installed Ubuntu on my PC in the past alongside Windows and I had configured everything correctly and got Ubuntu installed and working successfully (except the networking part), so I do have past experiences to fall back on. All right sorry about that, I wasn't questioning you but was just asking if you had gone wrong since it is quite possible we all miss a few things sometime and never realise it.

[mail2and]

Yea that comes in cost part! But u can't deny that this scenario resembles to that of MS. Neways we r discussing about end-users experience as requested by aayush and defied by himself who talked further than end-user thing!

I fail to understand how it resembles MS. Firstly, iLife has no competition, on any platform. As I said before, movies made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes. You get OS X and iLife free with your Mac.


I believe that any individual, unless he is a big audio/video editing guy working in a high profile studio, has no business considering Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro. Apple charges companies for these professional apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.

[mediator]

Firstly, iLife has no competition, on any platform. As I said before, movies made with iMovie have been screened at Cannes.

I know nuthing about iLife. So can't say how good it is!


You get OS X and iLife free with your Mac.

Free??? :oops: Nuthing is for free in the corporate world. ANd I'm really surprised that being a B.Com student and now a moderator u still don't know about such a simple concept! If some companies offer discounts on somewhere then they know how to compensate for it elsewhere! Think about it deeply. So u see its absurd to associate the term "free" with the corporate world! People who think that some company products r free, they r not only foolish but also toooo innocent. If u know how a company works or have some experience in corporate world then u'll probably know what I'm talking about!


Apple charges companies for these professional apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.

U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps! Goto http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/default.aspx?View=22 and u'll find several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! So I guess its ur reason which is absurd which isn't logical and correct enough to say that my reason was absurd!

[gxsaurav]

ok, one thing needs to be clerified...ilife is not free

If Apple bundles ilife apps into OS X they will be sued that instant, just like MS got sued, however, if they give it for sale, & still bundle for free with OS X then this way they will not get sued, cos then they are not including it inside the OS but giving it with the OS/Computer at a discount (free). It's a very good strategy to save themselves from being sued

[mail2and]

I know nuthing about iLife. So can't say how good it is!


Free??? :oops: Nuthing is for free in the corporate world. ANd I'm really surprised that being a B.Com student and now a moderator u still don't know about such a simple concept!

What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.



U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps! Goto http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/default.aspx?View=22 and u'll find several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! So I guess its ur reason which is absurd which isn't logical and correct enough to say that my reason was absurd!

Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post. Even though similar apps are available for Windows, most of the creative(graphics, audio, video) work is done on Macs. That's one field, where Apple has dominance(The other being education). By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer.
__________
ok, one thing needs to be clerified...ilife is not free

If Apple bundles ilife apps into OS X they will be sued that instant, just like MS got sued, however, if they give it for sale, & still bundle for free with OS X then this way they will not get sued, cos then they are not including it inside the OS but giving it with the OS/Computer at a discount (free). It's a very good strategy to save themselves from being sued

Nice explanation.

[mehulved]

By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer.
Huh, Who's Badriprasad Narayan Sharma :confused:

[mediator]

You get OS X and iLife free with your Mac.


What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.

@Andy, in the first post u had explicitly highlighted the term "free" to make ur point! Check for urself! ANd for what else is highlighting done for??? So I'm not sure what u really meant out of the 2 posts! It sounded more affirmly like "free as in free bear".


Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post. Even though similar apps are available for Windows, most of the creative(graphics, audio, video) work is done on Macs. That's one field, where Apple has dominance(The other being education). By graphical work, I don't mean Badriprasad Narayan Sharma making Rs. 2000/month as a free lancer.

Now ur acting a little strange. First I cud understand the typo u made, but now I can't understand why r u acting strangely! The highilighted part is as good as saying that "Go in most homes, and in most of the best companies and find out which operating system they use" to make ur point in Win Vs MAc debate. Isn't that absurd?

And I'm not talking about the creative part alone! It sounds more like as if Ur admitting that Mac is better only for creative part! So u see MS also offers several professional apps used for commercial purposes as well as used for university education purposes! They also offer several products not meant for individuals but companies! I gave u the link, u can freely check it!

[gxsaurav]

Please go to any bollywood movie/music studio. Ask them which software they use for post-production work. Then come back and post

Andy, it depends completely on the applications they use, it's not like most of the companies use Apple Mac only....u will find more percentage of companies using X86 PCs with Windows XP on it, because

1) AVID apps, used mostly in TVs, news channel work on Windows

2) If AVID real time compositing hardware is used, they use PCs with Windows

3) If they want to use Autodesk application, they use PCs', cos then they can run, 3Ds Max, Toxic, Combustion on the same computer, instead of buying a Mac on which they cannot use Toxic, & 3Ds Max, but they can use a few others

4) If they want to use Final cut HD, Motion, & Shake 4.1, then they are forced to buy a Mac by Apple, as they do not run on other operating system, Apple again ties the software with the hardware, which I would say is a wrong marketing strategy so that their own product sale more then others. They do the same with ipod too, but that’s a different story

5) If they want to use Maya, & other former alias apps along with Apple compositing apps ,they buy Mac as it runs both

6) If they wanna use Adobe After effect, they would prefer a PC more then a Mac, cos on the same PC there are more apps which can run, which do not run on Mac, however, they can also buy a Mac, if they have some apps which run only on Mac, as After effect is also available for Mac. By the way, just check Premiere Pro is no longer available for Mac, so if a company uses it, they will buy PCs

U said this in the other Windows vs. Mac thread too, let me write here again

Cheapest Mac pro = $2500 approx
Shake 4.1 for Mac = $500

Total cost = $ 3000

Shake 4.1 for Fedora core 4, which is the only Linux it runs on, & I still don't understand the reason, cos inside...all Linux are same for this work, costs $3000. Now add to this cost of a workstation about $2500 again, & u can easily find out why a buyer will buy a Mac, cos that is cost effective, just cos Apple has tied it with their own OS & hardware. Besides, u can go out & buy shake 4.1 off the shelf for a Mac, but if u wanna use it for linux, u will need to call them, give a lot of info, render farm size, number of nodes. At least with Windows & Linux, they can run these apps on any PC hardware, not just dell , or HP

Now u tell me, is this a proper marketing strategy? Is this valid....why don't they get sued for this then.

& by the way, why are u bringing workstations apps to this discussion. This thread was made for end user experience. I had to interfere when u said these lines here, which are compleately wrong as such

The day apple releases MacOS X for general computer, like Windows & Linux, it will loose its stability, tieing to their own Hardware is wrong always. Can u imagine the response, if ubuntu ties their Linux with their own OEM Computers or Windows with their own Microsoft OEM PCs

[mail2and]

cr@p and more cr@p

Star News/Aaj Tak/IBN use Macs. Period.

Most audio studios use Macs(Confirmed by a senior pro who lives in my building)

Same is the case with Movie studios.

These studios don't upgrade like everyday. They have batch upgrades once in two-three years. And they don't buy from retail, they buy from the corporate sales department. Do you even think they change machines? It's sad that you are so grossly misinformed about how offices work. Any computer they buy is used for atleast 2-3 years before upgrading. They max out the specs when the buy a computer so that it lasts them the 2-3 yr. cycle. If you don't believe me, mail the PR department of any movie studio in India(Adlabs). Ask them about their upgrade cycle.

And what do you know about marketing strategy?

I've told you 331231233 times that Apple IS NOT a software company. It's a hardware company that bundles a OS with their hardware. They can't help if the competition uses Fischer Price user interface(Vista).

You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.

To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.

[gxsaurav]

i came just to say this....& i m not wrong, when i said it depends on the applications they use

[mediator]

@Andy, why r u only talking about softwares used in movies etc?? Ur talking as if in the world of computing there exist no field other than movie editing etc and all u said!


You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.
To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.

Don't get offended, but ur exhibiting the same childishness as shown by @aayush! I agreed to what @mehul said. But something like this is not expected from a moderator now! @Gxsaurav posted his opinions etc in a most humble manner and is debating quite respectfully! And I do find his post filled with some sense,sanity instead of crap! But it seems ur only being rude to him and getting personal.
I don't know why u say he is "trolling" coz I find nuthing in his actions that match the meaning of that word. And where has gx written "cr@p and more cr@p" ??

Please behave! And don't behave like @aayush now who even posted my finger here to make him see it quite clearly and properly! ANd please do reply to my post too!

Neways I think it wud be better to switch back to "end-users experience" if u can't reason and reply correctly!

[eddie]

Star News/Aaj Tak/IBN use Macs. Period. I would like to read more on this. Links?

P.S. Have googled.

[mail2and]

Don't get offended, but ur exhibiting the same childishness as shown by @aayush! I agreed to what @mehul said. But something like this is not expected from a moderator now! @Gxsaurav posted his opinions etc in a most humble manner and is debating quite respectfully! And I do find his post filled with some sense,sanity instead of crap! But it seems ur only being rude to him and getting personal.


He has posted the same stuff 10 times over, in different threads, with a clear intention of deviating the discussion at hand. I have corrected him and told him facts. But, he does not listen.

If you still find my post offensive, go ahead, click on the report postbutton. :)

[aryayush]

All right sorry about that, I wasn't questioning you but was just asking if you had gone wrong since it is quite possible we all miss a few things sometime and never realise it.Yeah, I know it was a suggestion and I obviously was not offended by it. Thanks for a civil reply though, some people have obviously long forgotten how to reply in that manner!

The day apple releases MacOS X for general computer, like Windows & Linux, it will loose its stability, tieing to their own Hardware is wrong always. Can u imagine the response, if ubuntu ties their Linux with their own OEM Computers or Windows with their own Microsoft OEM PCsYou know what, if Microsoft's marketing department decided that they could make more money if they introduced a Microsoft PC and tied Windows with it, they would do it in a flash. They don't because they are primarily a software company and make money from the software, not the hardware. Therefore, it makes more sense to sell an operating system that will run on almost any PC in the world, bringing them more customers.
Similarly, Apple is a hardware company and if they tie their world-class operating system and applications with their hardware, people will have more reason to buy the hardware. If the iTunes music service was available to any MP3 player, they would make tens times more money from the service but iPod would not have had even thirty percent market share. Theie primary aim is to sell their Macs, iPods and XServes, not OS X, Final Cut Pro, iLife or iTunes Store. If in the process of selling the hardware, they make money from some of the software too, all the better for them. But they make sure that when you buy a Mac (even Mac Mini, the cheapest of the lot), you get a healthy set of bundled applications and the best OS in the world to run them on. Plus, it gives Apple users a feeling of exclusivity. The difference between a Maruti and Mercedes owner, if you will!

You're probably posting this cr@p for the 10th time. Accept it, no one listens to you, GX.

To the others: Well, the troll is here. No more sensible debate will be possible, sadly.We do listen to him and it is YOU who is not making sense here, mail2and. Even if some of his posts are illogical and/or biased (and I am not saying that they are), he has every right to post his opinions and I don't think you should make personal comments about it, especially not since you are a moderator. Look at tech_your_future's response to my post for inspiration.

You get OS X and iLife free with your Mac.Free??? Nuthing is for free in the corporate world. ANd I'm really surprised that being a B.Com student and now a moderator u still don't know about such a simple concept! If some companies offer discounts on somewhere then they know how to compensate for it elsewhere! Think about it deeply. So u see its absurd to associate the term "free" with the corporate world! People who think that some company products r free, they r not only foolish but also toooo innocent. If u know how a company works or have some experience in corporate world then u'll probably know what I'm talking about!You get Windows Movie Maker and Windows Media Player free with Windows XP. What is wrong with that statement? A pepsi bottle cost Rs. 45 a month ago and it costs the same today but you get a Kurkure packet with it for the same price. So, what do we say? We cannot say it is 'free' according to you, so do we say we bought the packet seperately? I know they adjusted the price of the packet somewhere and they are obviously not suffering a loss due to it, but for all ends and puposes, it is free for us, isn't it? So, if Apple bundles Mac OS X and iLife with every Mac without any additional charge (the price of every upgraded Mac keeps falling, in fact), then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!

Apple charges companies for these professional apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps!When did he say that? I'll bet you hundred bucks if you can quote me the statement in which he either said that directly or even implied so! He just tried to clear your concept of which applications were free and which were not and the reason behind it.
I know you are now going to quote my message, bolden some statements and then say how 'absurd, ignorant, foolish' they are (since these seem to be the only words in your severely limited vocabulary) and then proceed to tell me what my dad would have thought about it. It has become so routine that it seems boring to read through your tirade now, frankly!

[Desi-Tek.com]

Reasone for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux. unsatisfaction could be the reason for some 1 to switch from mac to linux or linux to mac or or windows to linux vice versa.
but if u are satisfied with ur os and if it is fulfilling ur requirement , than there is no point in switching to other os!.
other than that could be a mind set of people of trying something new or affection toward other os.

[mediator]

He has posted the same stuff 10 times over, in different threads, with a clear intention of deviating the discussion at hand. I have corrected him and told him facts. But, he does not listen.

I dunno about the different threads, but here his sanity levels were high enough. If u did reply to him earlier or made everyone clear with ur points then simply point to that debate with corresponding post numbers. Thats what I always do instead of writing the whole thing again or getting personal. Neways if u feel the topic is being deviated then its fine with me!


If you still find my post offensive, go ahead, click on the report postbutton.

C'mon bro, thats the last thing I'll ever do! @mehul requested me something. Read it. And I indeed found I was wrong. Did I get offended? SO there r other ways to deal instead of getting personal and bringing ur ego around!


You get Windows Movie Maker and Windows Media Player free with Windows XP. What is wrong with that statement? A pepsi bottle cost Rs. 45 a month ago and it costs the same today but you get a Kurkure packet with it for the same price. So, what do we say? We cannot say it is 'free' according to you, so do we say we bought the packet seperately? I know they adjusted the price of the packet somewhere and they are obviously not suffering a loss due to it, but for all ends and puposes, it is free for us, isn't it? So, if Apple bundles Mac OS X and iLife with every Mac without any additional charge (the price of every upgraded Mac keeps falling, in fact), then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!

Since u

1. didn't reply to my earlier posts about Commandline etc (read em all, there r many things u still didn't reply)
2. Can't classifiy users based on their task as stated in Software Engineering, IEEE etc and argue the facts!
3. Can't stick to ur own request of stating "end-users" experience and jump outta topic wheneva u feel like
4. Can't even debate properly in ur excited state and can't differentiate and judge which words shud be brought in debates and what kinda comparable and logical examples to be given. E.g that absurd doctor example
5. Can't even give a proper advice like about parallels and later @Andy saying that ur advice was strange!
6. Quite confidently exhibited ur childishness all the way specially the image of that finger of mine which u have stored in ur hardisk and posted here to make urself see it clearly and properly in larger size.
7. Many more,etc

Witnessing all this from u, u actually lost mah interest in debating with u. U better reply to all those previous posts of mine before asking me to give u further enlightenment!


@aryayush : @Andy is a B.Com guy and probably knew or understood what I said! Want Proof?? Read below

What I meant was that it is bundled with the package. Not free as in free beer.

So @aayush, u may ask the same question about "free" to @Andy. And since he is a B.Com guy, he may be able to explain actually better than me! Now do ask him and don't sit quiet!

then it is FREE. Free as in free beer!

No its not! And ask @Andy how. It seems ur too innocent!




Apple charges companies for these professional apps, as companies use these software for commercial purposes. (All big film studios/audio companies). So, saying that they resemble MS, because they charge for a software, is not only absurd, but also foolish.

U r saying as if Apple is the only company that makes professional apps!

When did he say that? I'll bet you hundred bucks if you can quote me the statement in which he either said that directly or even implied so! He just tried to clear your concept of which applications were free and which were not and the reason behind it.

Say what the @Andy part or the highlighted part?? If ur asking about Andy part, then go back n read again?? If ur asking about the hilighted part then if don't mind to read a little bit more carefully then u'll see clearly that I have written "as if". Now shud I enlighten u about English learning tooo??


I know you are now going to quote my message, bolden some statements and then say how 'absurd, ignorant, foolish' they are (since these seem to be the only words in your severely limited vocabulary) and then proceed to tell me what my dad would have thought about it. It has become so routine that it seems boring to read through your tirade now, frankly!

Atleast the words are better and ethical then ur words, the few words that u have learnt like "su**er" etc in ur skool days in the state of ur childishness and utter them thinking that they make u look quite fancy and modern. People don't realise that these words when spoken that confidently in public actually make them look quite stupid and pathetic! And ofcors if u can radiate ur nature so well with these words, then I guess u shud make urself comfortable with them n front ur dad. Wat say?? Now u'll really surprise me if u say that ur already speak with such words in front of ur dad!
As for the highlighted part, thats a well known fact in debates that a person utters such words when he grows frustrated n can't reason appropriately and has run outta his points! Frankly! :)
And why do u keep on posting "frankly" after ur personal comments like a child. Aren't ur other opinions and posts frank??

So do ask @andy about that "free" thing!

[gxsaurav]

i was taking part in this thread, just cos of the workstation apps discussion, but since now u r again getting personal like u always do, i m backing off...can't argue with a mod who wants to run things his own way

u still have not replied, how do u know they use Mac in Star news etc? Source plz

[FatBeing]

Thread cleaned (sort of - PM me if I've missed anything)

It's a shame that this had to be locked because a few people didn't understand the implication of a civilised debate.

Next flamer gets an IP ban; excuses like "He started it" will earn an additional 10,000 mails from a spambot of your choice.

[aryayush]

Thanks! :)
__________
So, have the Linux users got any valid points to make?

[mediator]

Quote and Tell which one wasn't valid!

[aryayush]

Well, I can only remember one point that the operating system and most of the apps are open source and that is something you guys like about Linux.
As for me, I do not have a problem with proprietary software so I don't mind the fact that I cannot modify the source code of Mac OS X.

And apart from that, no one has posted any points in favour of Linux.

[mediator]

Well aayush being open-source is itself a big advantage. U may google to find the differences between open and closed source softwares that are not even listed in this forum. U wanted an end-users experience and comparison. Well I stated from the start that only 3-4 people can write about it. Linux is free and that itself is a very big advantage.
Yea it doesn't have all of the required softwares in the free version. BUt u can always download the softwares and make the OS complete with required softwares. It just takes u around 2 hrs. ISn't that a negligible trade-off for price which is zero??

Also I like that some linux distros aren't bundled with all of the softwares.

Like the UBUNTU Edgy that I have installed on my laptop. Since my laptop has only 40 GB of space of which I have allocated 10 GB to linux, I prefered UBUNTU here. I installed only the minimum softwares that are needed to make me work comfortably without any problems.

Now compare it to my primary desktop OS fedora 5. I have allocated 50 GB to linux partition. Fedora is a montrously bundled distro that comes loaded in 4-5 cds. Wheneva I'm free and OS/PC is not in use I just fire the most easy way of install that is thru command line. Yes there is GUI available too for updating. But I prefer commandline coz I can use the wildcards in it. That is again another big advantage commandline has over GUI. So I just fire up yum, use wild cards and keep installing all sorta softwares available in the repositories.

So having a Linux distro with minimum softwares is also nice in some cases.

MAc may be good as u and @andy said. I don't argue that as I know nuthing about MAC. But all the way I emphasised on how commandline can be much better than GUI and how LINUX is getting extremely easy to work with.

So, since u already hijacked the session with end-users experience which only few people can discuss, then how can anyone write in favour of linux? U as a thread creator urself suppressed the Linux advantages and wanted to talk on end-users experience. HAve a full fledged debate and u'll find people talking in favour Linux.

Neways, today many people as end-users are quite happy and satisfied with latest Linux distros which are going easier and more and more user friendly with each distro released and competetition between the various Linux vendors is what alone contributing to that rising popularity,ease and user-friendliness .

[aryayush]

Even if I concede that the command line method might be better for doing certain tasks, how does it make Linux better than a Mac? Yes, it makes Linux better than Windows, but the Terminal on a Macintosh can do pretty much everything the Linux Terminal can, both operating systems having a similar UNIX base.
As far as the open source discussion goes - well, it has its disadvantages too. If you are not using Novel's SUSE Linux, you cannot use proprietary software on your distro. (I am not absolutely certain about this point, but I have heard that there are some major licensing issues.) Please correct me if I am wrong!

And I have used both Macintosh and Linux (albiet for a very short period), so here are some of the advantages that Macs have over Linux:
1. Very versatile method of capturing screenshots. You can capture the whole screen, just the desktop, a particular selection or any particular window.
2. Hot Corners. Just drag your mouse to the screen edges to activate useful features like Exposé (all windows, application windows, desktop), Dashboard and Screensaver. Use it once and you'll wish your screen had just one more corner.
3. Exposé (it's reason enough to make the switch to a Macintosh).
4. Brilliant UI. You just have to see the slick animations to believe it. The sliding windows, smooth scrolling, dock magnification, dashboard zooming, folding sheets, cube animated desktops, genie and scale effect of maximising/minimising windows, warp, fade, etc.
5. Just press 'Ctrl' and scroll your mouse, the whole screen zooms in. It's a very useful feature.
6. System wide dictionary and spell checking. Just press 'Command + Ctrl + D' and roll your mouse over any word on the screen to see an instant definition attached to the mouse.
7. Complete support for drag-and-drop. When you are dragging something with the mouse (and that includes files, pictures, movies and even text), you can press and button on the keyboard, use the screen corners and the item will still remain attached to the mouse. When you roll your mouse over some folder, the folder will spring open. This means you can literally anything from anywhere to any other place.
8. The ability to use two fingers for the secondary click and scrolling functions is so much simpler to use than a secondary button for right clicking and two stupid demarcated lines for scrolling (this is a laptop specific feature).

Yes, I know that some of it sounds very trivial, but when you use it on a regular basis, you will realise that it makes for a much faster and satisfactory experience. I also know that Compiz, Beryl, XGL, etc. can enable loads of graphical effects and Exposé functionality on any Linux distro but it is not something your regular user can enable. I tried to do it but it sounded very difficult. The command line method was virtually impossible for me, and the graphical method (for which I found only one tutorial) wasn't too easy either.

These are just some of the many advantages of using Apple software (and hardware). Even if you do a direct debate between Macintosh and Linux, the only advantage that Linux enjoys is that it is free (yes, it is a big advantage, no doubt), but it can never match the experience of using a Mac.

[subratabera]

Don't you think that Linux is emerging too fast to catch the MAC or Windows functionality (I mean GUI for everything)...As you know it is a community driven development approach, so the development can't go as smooth as Windows or MAC...Have some p