Apple expensive? I don't think so...

[aryayush]

... and here's the reason why.

There are three departments in computer hardware: for home use, office use and on the go. Apple offers the iMac and Mac Mini; Mac Pro; and MacBook and MacBook Pro respectively for the three departments. In this little article, I will justify the price of the Apple 17-inch iMac in comparison to a self assembled PC with similar specs and try to make you, a prospective buyer, see the competitiveness of Apple’s pricing. Read on to see how things are not always as transparent as they might seem!
I have written my first ever article on technology and wouldn't mind if a few people had a look at it. Please click on this sentence to read the article and leave a comment if possible! (http://pressanykeyto.blogspot.com/2006/09/apple-expensive-i-dont-think-so.html) Thank you!
I have posted this in the 'Fight Club' because this is a debatable topic and I would like to know how many people disagree with me and their reason for doing so. :)

[eddie]

The cheapest Mac (according to apple's site) is costing 62,900 bucks.
http://www.asia.apple.com/store/india/TheAppleStore_iMac.htm
They have also given the specs. Even though I have not updated myself with the price of the hardware lately but an assembled PC with those specs will not cost you more than 40K at the max. I still think Apple is expensive...

[iMav]

apple is not expensive :confused::confused:!!!! .... no comments

[kumarmohit]

I dont think Mac is expensive Quality comes @ price

[QwertyManiac]

It certainly isnt 'expensive' but it is definitely higher than other solutions available. And no, you can not game on it fellow gamers :)

[mail2and]

Aryaayush, I'd recommend you to post your article at forums such as macnn.com, macrumors.com or appleinsider.com. If you want a critical review of your article, which is related to Apple/Macs, you're not likely to get it here. The knowledge about Apple/Macs in this forum is abysmally low.

Most of the people who have replied above haven't even cared to read your article, leave aside reviewing it. Someone said that the cheapest Mac costs 62k. First, the cheapest Mac i.e. Mac Mini costs around 30-32k. Second, the price of iMac mentioned on Apple's India catalog store is MRP. Most dealers, especially the big ones, will sell the computer to you at a lesser price.

What people fail to understand or do not understand is that a branded computer can not compete with an assembled computer. However, the level of support, warranty and consequently, service experience differs. Read about my experience with AppleCare here (http://techlogy.net/blog/2006-09/applecare-experience).

[eddie]

Most of the people who have replied above haven't even cared to read your article, leave aside reviewing it. Someone said that the cheapest Mac costs 62k. First, the cheapest Mac i.e. Mac Mini costs around 30-32k....and he talked about Mac Mini in his article? For god's sake man...you can't compare apples to oranges. He was clearly talking about Mac...not Mac mini. Just look at the specs he mentioned. Please read the article again and get the essence of it before flaming everyone
Second, the price of iMac mentioned on Apple's India catalog store is MRP. Most dealers, especially the big ones, will sell the computer to you at a lesser price.Yes...the dealers will sell it at 40K...sure...why not...may be they will give me one for free :roll:
What people fail to understand or do not understand is that a branded computer can not compete with an assembled computer. In what ways? If you just talk about customer care then I would like to ask you that how many times did you call the Mac Care or their executive visit you in one year? Divide 20,000 bucks with that number...that is how much your each call cost you. Was it worth it? If yes...then you are just a rich guy with loads of money to throw down the drain.

[knight17]

dont think Mac is expensive Quality comes @ price
Is it able to compete with a PC of similar price, I don't think it is.May be the PC don't have the look, but I love it.

[mail2and]

...and he talked about Mac Mini in his article? For god's sake man...you can't compare apples to oranges. He was clearly talking about Mac...not Mac mini. Just look at the specs he mentioned. Please read the article again and get the essence of it before flaming everyone
Yes...the dealers will sell it at 40K...sure...why not...may be they will give me one for free :roll:
In what ways? If you just talk about customer care then I would like to ask you that how many times did you call the Mac Care or their executive visit you in one year? Divide 20,000 bucks with that number...that is how much your each call cost you. Was it worth it? If yes...then you are just a rich guy with loads of money to throw down the drain.

Lol. First, it is not a 'Mac'. It is an 'iMac'. There are different Macs: MacBook Pro, MacBook, Mac Mini, iMac, PowerMac, eMac. Not exactly apples to oranges.

Second, it is obvious that you do not know a single mac dealer. I personally got my Mac Mini for 35k when the MRP was 39k. Now, i'd request you to get the 'essence' of the topic at hand.

Third, I'd request you to get the same rig at 40k :) With a monitor. Check the internal components of any mac and you'll see why it is around 4-5k expensive than a similar PC config.

IBm(Lenovo) portables on the PC side are expensive, as well. The reason? They use high quality parts.

Now for some Accounts lessons. A company has to spend on advertising, customer care, offices. They have a huge employee base. They have to maintain an acceptable margin to keep the shareholders happy. The chain goes like Manufacturer->Company->You

Whereas, when you buy an assembled computer, these costs are not incurred. Hence, assembled computers are cheaper.

And for the personal remark in your post, I will not reply to it. You can think of me as anyone you want. I don't care.

[blackpearl]

At the price of a mac I can build a PC that I bet will be much more powerful than the mac. So PC= more performance-per-rupees.

[eddie]

Second, it is obvious that you do not know a single mac dealer. I personally got my Mac Mini for 35k when the MRP was 39k. Now, i'd request you to get the 'essence' of the topic at hand.
ermm...and that would get me the iMac at 40K? You are getting so happy about 4 thousand bucks and I am talking about more than 23K here...please get the picture...
The OP talks about a system costing 63K bucks in his article...not 35K...

Third, I'd request you to get the same rig at 40k :) With a monitor.If you ever come down to Delhi in near future...give Nehru Place a try. The experience will be an eye opener for you...

Check the internal components of any mac and you'll see why it is around 4-5k expensive than a similar PC config.4-5K? I am talking about 23K here. They are gold plating the internal components or what?

IBm(Lenovo) portables on the PC side are expensive, as well. The reason? They use high quality parts.Yes they ask Intel to make high quality CPUs for them...Seagate to produce different drives for them and mobo manufacturers to provide them with custom built rocket speed mobos. I am getting the whole picture now :-)

Now for some Accounts lessons. A company has to spend on advertising, customer care, offices. They have a huge employee base. They have to maintain an acceptable margin to keep the shareholders happy. The chain goes like Manufacturer->Company->YouThanks for the accounts lesson oh great sir. So I should give them my money in order to make them show me advertisements and keep their shareholders happy? Sorry but my close up does not look like this
http://tinyurl.co.uk/6zy3

[JGuru]

It's pretty simple. Mac O.S caters to niche audience.It has more innovative features than
Windows ( ofcourse M$ copies all the Mac's features in it's next O.S release!!!). Mac is
expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!

[aryayush]

Mac is expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!You should rephrase that to:
"Mac was expensive beyond doubt. That's why Microsoft was able to penetrate the market so easily!!!"
I do not disagree that Apple's products used to be grossly overpriced in the not too distant past, but they offer the most competitively priced products in the market today.
I have another post to support my Apple is not expensive theory, if you would care to have a look here:
Apple expensive? I don't think so... (part deux) (http://pressanykeyto.blogspot.com/2006/10/apple-expensive-i-dont-think-so-part.html). Comments are now open to everyone, if you are so inclined.

[gxsaurav]

Macs were costly....then they switched to Intel X86 CPU to reduces costs
Now they are just over prices PCs

Eddie, u r right,...even I would like to ask Andy, what special components apple uses in their Macs which make them 23k or 4k costly then similarly configured PCs, which is also justified according to him....I guess they had SATA 2 HD already when PCs were running PATA in 2001

Andy, u r not the only one here who has worked on a Mac, better come to the real world

the cheapest Mac is a Mac mini, well, yeah it is...but it does not comes with a Monitor keyboard mouse, etc etc....& what about the sound card, oh it's 2.1 channel onboard. What about the graphics card, oh it's onboard GMA 950 which no one can upgrade. So it's cheap & value for money at 35k, right.

we can get a PC in 35k, without Core 2 duo, but Athlon64 3800+ X2 for sure, just cos core 2 duo is hard to find in retail channel, & we can easily have a 7300GT or Radeon X1600XT with 512 MB VRAM in it & onboard 5.1/7.1 channel audio, monitor keyboard & mouse included...with far better upgrade capability

This is India, why are u comparing Apple USA prices & PC USA prices in India? This is for all of the readers here.

& cut the shareholder talk etc....we are consumers, & we want product at lower cost, we don't want to pay Rs 5000 more, just so that the shareholders are happy

& Andy, in that techspot thread, didn't U said u got your Mac mini for 26k? this is the first time I m hearing that a dealer is selling a branded computer at cost less then it's MRP tera bhai tha kya

Jguru

where have u been when apple copied Spotlight from Longhorn beta shown in 2003 or system backup in form of Time Machine in leopard, come to real world guys, everyone copies from everyone...this is business

The only thing I still like about Apple which is a hardware company is that they made beautiful looking Computers, I mean, no one ever thought of squeezing a computer in a small box like Mac mini, even though, it just stays like that always with no upgradeability. The iMac G4 with the round base is still my favorite designed Computer, iMacG5 & iMac core duo, the whole in one Mac sux in design

PCs are meant to be upgraded as & when needed, Shuttle XPC ever seen those, they are damn small, yet they provide full upgrading capability

aryaush, about your config

U R installing a mobile core 2 duo CPU in a PC desktop, great...just great, they don't even install on desktop PCs, they are costly already cos they are for mobile usage

U included a $140 isight camera in your PC config, again...superb choice, a great camera for PC which doesn't even work with PC...umm...what was the price of Microsoft LX 6000, i guess $79 or $89

apple keyboard & mouse....well, i guess white color hardware comes $10 costly

[aryayush]

apple keyboard & mouse....well, i guess white color hardware comes $10 costlyTen US dollars amounts to Rs. 456.84. You can get a keyboard and mouse combo cheaper than that, irrespective of whether it is 'white' or not?!? I don't think so, mate.

[gxsaurav]

Ten US dollars amounts to Rs. 456.84. You can get a keyboard and mouse combo cheaper than that, irrespective of whether it is 'white' or not?!? I don't think so, mate.
Come again, didn't get u?

what i meant was, Apple's own keyboard & Mouse, are more costly then normal PC keyboard & Mouse, & they charge the premium just cos it's white in color :-D

By the way, why no comments or answers to the other point i posted?

[freshseasons]

I completly agree with gxsaurav on this ! I mean If we think that way even " Mercedes are not expensive ".
Apples have always been into premium Product flagships! Ibook is no more functional than PC Laptop yet the drooling Power simply makes one pay for it.
Apple now since using Softwares that can install windows xp on intel Proccy macs shows they will want to use the windows XP customers base who have an eye for mac.
Points mentioned by gxsaurav are pretty much valid and hence thres no point repeating them
Apples are expensive and they remain so now !

[nix]

ppl usually think more expensive products are better. these compnies that cant bring in the numbers resort to high prices to create a kind of niche market. another example is bose....

[aryayush]

Tiger and Vista: Pictures do speak louder than words! (http://pressanykeyto.blogspot.com/2006/10/pictures-do-speak-louder-than-words.html)
This post is a must read for Mac and PC users alike. I have been as objective as it is humanly possible to be. The subjective differences that appear on such articles are bound to be present though. Please do give it a look anyway! Thanks! :)

[gxsaurav]

Oh comon....don't u have anything else to do. Once u were proven wrong, that Mac is not cheap...u start saying a completely different thing.

An idea is so obvious, it comes on it's own...Linux & Mac also copy from Windows, why didn't u show time machine, & it's Windows equivalent, Windows backup system. Why didn't u said that instant search was a feature of WinFS first shown in Longhorn builds 4053 in 2003, which apple copied & released in Mac first as spotlight

U are saying Flip3D & Expose are same, well tell me from which angle...they are completely different. Expose is a 2d layer, parallel to the monitor screen; Flip3D is a 3d layer in itself with Z-buffer

Windows Explorer & Finder are alike...yeah right....do u see an address bar in finder

Control panel searching, again, why don't u say KDE copied it before vista did...this is an obvious feature, which u don't even need actually. Just read what’s on the screen...& u will find what u r looking for

Dock is stylish, that’s it. For years Mac apps are pallated, just look at after effect 6.5 for Mac or GIMP for Mac, & look at AE7 for Mac. However this is just a true innovation. So I won't argue on it...Kudos to Apple for the dock

Even I can say, that Apple copied the current alt+tab from Windows, to show the icons

Dashboard...again, now that is a rip off of Konfabulater, everyone knows that & Sidebar is nothing like dashboard. Sidebar is a container for Widgets, unlike dashboard, which is not a container..But another layer on top of Mac UI

Windows Photo gallery is new, & it's nothing like iphoto....I haven't used iphoto so I can't say though

Burn files to CD was already available in Windows XP, from the time it was released, but I don't think it was in MacOS X 10.0 or 10.1...they added it later

Media centre is a copy of front row ...ya, right....absolutely true man....where were u in 2003, 2004 2005 when XP MCE was released, u r saying the other way around

URGE & iTunes, that’s different discussion anyway, I can say a lot of shortcoming of ipod too....& there are many in Playforsure devices too.

U said better get a Mac, well...why didn't u also said that MacOS works only on Computers made by Apple, which cannot be upgraded by user, which has far less choice when upgrading unlike PCs, & have no value for money anyway. U can't even upgrade RAM on your own

Get your facts right, owning a Mac does not mean its better

[mail2and]

Dashboard...again, now that is a rip off of Konfabulater, everyone knows that


Sorry for bursting your li'l bubble. Desktop Accessories were first introduced in System 6 in 1988. Wonder why Konfab developers didn't sue Apple?

Ayush, i'd say again. you'd never get a good review of your articles on this forum. Most of the people on this forum have myopic and rigid viewpoints.
__________

[COLOR=black] Why didn't u said that instant search was a feature of WinFS first shown in Longhorn builds 4053 in 2003, which apple copied & released in Mac first as spotlight

What reason do you have to believe that the technology wasn't being developed by Apple when it was previewed by MS? If you are just guessing, then you're no more than a troll.

Windows Explorer & Finder are alike...yeah right....do u see an address bar in finder

It's designed in such a way that it does not require an address bar. However, the next time you check out finder, click on Go>Go to Folder, and your address bar would be there. Shift+Apple+G works, too.

I predict you will skip all of the points mentioned in my post because you have no points to reply. Infact, I can bet on it. :)

And you mentioned that I said my mac was worth 26k? Well, go checkout TechSpot, kid. If you have already done and realize your folly or ignorance, then do 10 sit-ups or just go back to your sofa. It's already missing you.

[goobimama]

Okay gx:

1) Time machine is (is to be at least) totally transparent. Works behind the scenes. You don't have to remind yourself every week (every day?) to take a backup. I've lost a couple of important files till now, due to my stupidity I admit, and I painfully have to take backups every week (even on my iMac)

2) I've not used flip3D, but gathering from the pictures, I can only see that it shows you one window at a time. Flip flip flip. Expose, much more functional, shows you all the windows, neatly and quickly I might add, to use as much space as efficiently possible. And "Spaces" in leopard is going to better that...

3) I've never used the address bar in Explorer.

4) neh
5) It pains me to run windows on my 24inch monitor.

6) The alt+tab is far more functional in mac. You can quit apps right from alt-tab. You can select the icon from your mouse. Not sure who copied whom though, you may be right.

8) You have not used iPhoto and yet you say Windows Photo gallery is nothing like iPhoto? Talk sense.

9) Whatever. You have to drag the files to the CD drive. It copies all the files to a separate folder before burning which takes as long as the burning process itself....

I can upgrade my RAM.

So I guess it comes down to personal choices. Some prefer to have everything but their work transparent. Some prefer to do some tweaks here and there, clean up the system every week, waste a couple of hours reinstalling every few months.

Some don't mind spending a few extra bucks, so that they don't have to do the dirt job. (though, I must admit, that kind of contradicts the title of this argument).

Why I wrote such a long argument? I can't get sleep...

[gxsaurav]

i better leave now....can't argue all the time to u 2 on your kiddish comments

Andy, was spotlight in developement?, who knows....now anyone can say it was when showed on longhorn, no one knows the truth here

It's designed in such a way that it does not require an address bar. However, the next time you check out finder, click on Go>Go to Folder, and your address bar would be there. Shift+Apple+G works, too.


Didn't know that.

goobimama

1) Have u ever used Windows Backup, u don't even have to do it manually, it will automatically make backups on whatever time period. & by the way, isn't file specific backup something introduced in Windows server 2003 in the year 2003, i think it's called Volume shadow copy...maybe

2) Like i said previously, Apple copied virtual desktop from Linux....& named it Spaces, wonder why andy is not pointing this

Some prefer to do some tweaks here and there, clean up the system every week, waste a couple of hours reinstalling every few months.


So, u don't clean your junk files, cookies, temporary files etc, right...thats quite nice

[mediator]

Ahhh! Please dont leave the fight guys, I was watching the whole nice exciting fight like an observer. It entertained me quite a lot and enlightened me about a lotta things about mac. :)

[mail2and]

i better leave now....can't argue all the time to u 2 on your kiddish comments
Now that you've got your tail between your legs, you're quitting? Tsk Tsk.


Andy, was spotlight in developement?, who knows....now anyone can say it was when showed on longhorn, no one knows the truth here

Yes, what proof you have that Apple did not have it in development? You have no proof to show that. You, obviously, do not understand how operating systems are developed. I would say that if MS had introduced it in 'Longhorn', WHY ISN'T IT A PART OF A COMMERCIALLY RELEASED OS BY MICROSOFT, YET?

It was introduced in Apple's OS about ONE and HALF years ago.

I predicted it right :d, you did not reply to my other comments. It was, obviously, because you had no knowledge of this topic and were trying to troll by posting anything that came to your mind.



2) Like i said previously, Apple copied virtual desktop from Linux....& named it Spaces, wonder why andy is not pointing this

Yes, I forgot to mention that. It's nice that Apple did copy that :)

I wish Apple do copy Konqueror, too. It's the best file manager out there. It leaves Finder and Windows Explorer far far behind.

Apple have based Safari on Konqueror; it's time to base Finder on it, too.

I'd suggest you go back 20 years to 1985-87, GX. Look at the lawsuits in those years. Maybe your perception of MS will change.

[aryayush]

And anyway, the point of this article was not to show how MS is copying everything from Apple. Everyone knows it HAS been doing that since time immemorial, except for a few nutters!
All I wanted to point out was that features that are available on a Mac appear on a PC at least after one or more years. The Mac users have been launching applications and recovering lost files with the spotlight since April, 2005. Why is it only appearing in Vista's betas now? And that too, according to you, when it was conceptualised by Microsoft?!
See, you have never used a Mac and are defending yourself and your crappy OS of choice when you don't have much idea about the Mac platform. Run them side by side on one system (a feat you can achieve only if you have a Mac) and you will truly realise what you had been missing all along. I bet you will almost never boot into Windows.
And if you have read my article in its entirety, you will notice that I DID mention that MS scored over Apple when it comes to Flip (not Flip 3D) and Windows Media Center.
As for your argument that Flip 3D has not been copied from Exposé, well, it looks exactly the same thing from my, and of many respected technology experts including David Pogue's, point of view. The only visible difference is that Expose is pseudo-3D and Flip 3D is just that, 3D. The screen dims in both and both of them have a VERY similar animation. The difference that IS there has purposely been created to '*******ize and diminish (it) in some way by definition' so that MS is shielded from the lawsuits and people like you can claim that it isn't copied. Of course, Exposé is far more useful and is more convenient to invoke. You just slide your mouse to the corner of the screen and it activates in a flash. I constantly find myself sliding my mouse to the screen corner when I am running Vista on Parallels (which, in case you didn't know, is a software that allows you to run any OS on Mac OS X without the need for a reboot).

[goobimama]

This has never happened before. gx has, as anand says, put his 'small little' tail between it two ignorant legs and fled the topic! And if he does read 'this' post of mine, that means he didn't actualy leave, but he's watching from one corner of the world (even though the world doesn't have corners).

[aryayush]

Windows Photo gallery is new, & it's nothing like iphoto....I haven't used iphoto so I can't say thoughI can surely see how sure you are about what you say! Let me just rephrase that for you a bit:
"Windows Vista is new, & it's nothing like Mac OS X Tiger....I haven't used Tiger so I can't say though"
LOL! :lol:

[mediator]

Run them side by side on one system (a feat you can achieve only if you have a Mac) and you will truly realise what you had been missing all along. I bet you will almost never boot into Windows.

I like that kinda confidence! So guess mah VMWare list includes MAC too now. Wonder if it can be installed on it!

Neways I agree with @mail2and, he (@gxsaurav) cheated with me too in (http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38169) WIndows Vs Linux debate which was getting interesting and fled in between .

Hey guys how much Physical memory Mac uses so that I can set it up in VMWARE??

[aryayush]

Anything lower than 512 megabytes won't do it justice. I personally have two gigabytes of memory on my system and I allot one gigabyte to each OS when, and if, I boot Vista using Parallels. But I used to do that when Vista RC1 was released to check it out. Don't do it any longer now... for obvious reasons!
Tiger has really got a huge jungle to play in, and boy, it is fast! I selected thirty images, right-clicked and selected 'Open with Photoshop CS2'. The program was already running and the images opened in cascaded windows in two seconds flat. And this when Mail, Safari, iChat, iTunes, iPhoto, QuickTime, System Preferences, Adium, Microsoft Messenger, Opera and Yahoo! Messenger were already running.
I then booted into Windows XPee (using Boot Camp) and launched Adobe Photoshop CS2. Then I selected the same thirty images and hit return. It took twenty two seconds even with no other program running. Let's hope Windows Vista is not blown away so easily by Leopard... or even Tiger! :p

[mediator]

^^Oh man! I guess I'll only be a mute spectator/observer then and wont be able to njoy mac.

[aryayush]

I think I missed a point or two here. What is this 'VMWARE'?
Is it related to Microsoft's Virtual Machine?

[mediator]

Yea VMWARE means MS Virtual machine.

[goobimama]

VMWare is not longer used. We use Parallels now on the new Intel Machines. VM is very very slow. Parallels, coupled with enough RAM, gives near native speeds...

[mediator]

^Hmmm, will install parallel too then.

[aryayush]

Yeah, Parallels is definitely the best choice there is.

[gxsaurav]

The usual thinking is that Microsoft is bad, it copies & it sux, even if they are trying to do something nice

I just read the news that MS will be removing some of the security features in vista, due to pressure from EC, now u tell me, is that viable

The problem is, Microsoft has so much market share out there, that even if they add a new feature or app in their own OS they get sued, saying that they are killing competition, I mean, no one sues Apple or Linux for bundling a lot of features & application, cos no one gives a damn, but if MS adds a new Photo viewer, they will get sued cos it's killing competition like Acdsee or Picasa.

The best thing about Windows is that, it has a lot of 3rd party developers, a lot of options to choose from which all work perfectly, unlike Mac, where there are only a few application, & the monopoly of Apple made apps rule the Mac market. Music player, well....its itunes, which monopolizes the Mac music player market. Video viewer well quicktime, cos apple bundles with the OS. In linux, there are numerous choices...but none as good in features compared to their Windows/Mac counterpart

Now Andy ones told me, that it's cos U can uninstall anything completely in Mac/Linux, unlike Windows where u cannot uninstall it completely. Well, isn't this what happens on Mac/Linux too when u uninstall something, other apps brake. I uninstalled Openoffice in ubuntu, & guess what it uninstalled Gnome desktop, meditator...why did that happened? & andy, u want to check if u can remove something completely, well, go & remove QuickTime, your MacOS will seize to function properly, as whole MacOS uses QuickTime engine, it's deeply integrated, just like WMP is on XP SP2

Aryoush

In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista, now whose copying. & u r talking about recovering files, like we windows users can't use search at all

& who said i have never used a Mac?

The difference that IS there has purposely been created to '*******ize and diminish (it) in some way by definition' so that MS is shielded from the lawsuits and people like you can claim that it isn't copied

U really are a troll fanboy. Like i said previously, sometimes an idea is so obvious that it comes on it's own, u cannot say it's copying, else Linux is the biggest copy cat out there. & why u started this discussion here in this thread, this thread was for the comparision of Mac & PC prices, u did not had anything to say on that topic so started trolling on this point

About Parallels, I have already used it on Windows, it sux, it's good for Mactel only. VMWare rox for Windows platform, & u cannot install MaOS X in Parallels workstation for Windows or Vmware

kafi kabil ho tum log, great.....keep reading & posting whatever u like...mere ko kya..achchar dalun kya

[eddie]

I uninstalled Openoffice in ubuntu, & guess what it uninstalled Gnome desktop, meditator...why did that happened? ID 10 T error? :D
It didn't uninstall "Gnome desktop"...it just uninstalled "ubuntu-desktop" package...you don't need it and it will not mess anything up.
I didn't want to troll but please keep your comments to things you know about, else you just embarrass yourself...

[mediator]

@gxsaurav....:D:D:D, seriously mahn, u r really amusing. I can't just stop mah laughing at ur posts now. This thread is about MAC, why r u dragging the mighty Linux here? To embarass urself even further??

U really got no sense, Neither to post in appropriate thread and nor to speak correctly. It excites me wheneva I debate with some genius person. But ur case is totally different and its lowering mah excitement below minimum threshold levels. U know nothing about MAC nor about Linux, but still?? Why r u making a serious mockery of urself here? First u come,make 4-5 absurd posts and then say I dont like to debate now and chicken out, and again reappear when the tone is low! What de heck.

http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38169
If u wanna speak about linux continue from here, where u chickened out without replying to mah posts or mods/gods gonna kill me for replying in irrelevant thread.

Don't u dare to say, mediator dont have points and thats why he's saying that. I can debate endlessly for windows Vs linux, but u disspaointed meh by chickening outta that thread.


Well, isn't this what happens on Mac/Linux too when u uninstall something, other apps brake

Are u asking or telling?? If ur telling then I can only sympathise with ur ignorance!

About the Gnome-desktop, damn eddie stole my pleasure of replying. I guess u don't even know "abcd" of linux, and wheneva u encounter any difficulty in Linux, u mistake it with a flaw or Linux error and become so excited that u post ur ignorance here absurdly. Seriously, these posts of urs may work in MS forums where people are so victimised that they dont even know they are a victim of windows. I guess someone needs to write a 10 page article there about Linux.

Sorry to be offensive, but dude If I start to reply to this post(#37) of urs quoting every single line, then I can promise I can make u look even more pathetic. DOnt misunderstand, its for ur own sake. U shudn't take parts in debates where u have one sided knowledge. I'm only observing things here to know more about mac! So why dont u fill life into that Windows Vs linux thread again ?? If u wanna get enlightened, then I'll promise u supreme enlightenment!!! I guess this is the first time u got an award and MS-MVP has really blinded u. To be frank I got a lotta certificates for quizes about windows, projects on windows, projects on Linux, Linux programming but those are only essential for mah career. To be frank, they r immaterial to me and I dont boast about em in front of neone/everyone. Only a few people know that I achieved something. Neither they have changed mah attitude to see the light and nor they made me a fanboy either for windows or Linux.

I know both about windows and linux, and thats why i can say confidently that windows is better ONLY in gaming area compared to linux.

So I beg u dont post about things u dont know about.


kafi kabil ho tum log, great.....keep reading & posting whatever u like...mere ko kya..achchar dalun kya

And for god sake, dont make these silly,frustrated remarks for these people. Its really annoying. Its human mentality, that makes him say such things when he has got dry lips and needs a glass of water as he has nothing new or valid to say. I see u aint quoted @Andy yet

[gxsaurav]

Woops, sorry, I thought ubuntu-desktop & gnome desktop are same. But still a Linux n00b doesn't know that

Meditator, I was pointing out where Mac is better & where it lacks, compared to other Operating systems

Windows users are victimized? How come

I have already said it previously on many such debates on this forum. better read those, isn't these the conclusion...prove me wrong on these poitns plz.....

Windows

Works everywhere, any hardware
Works all the time, u have a lot of hardware & software supported
Dirt cheap, PC hardware is available anywhere

Cons

User friendly, so less secure, admin right everywhere. Good things it's going to change
Maximum market share, due to which primary target of virus etc
The old saying: Intel inside, idiot outside, just use common sense
Not much in included out of the box, if they provide, they get sued

MacOS

Pretty User interface
Everything is inbuilt, a music player, a video player, ilife, etc....
Low market share, so less prone to Virus etc, no one gives a damn
Idiot proof, very stable cos the drivers are made by Apple & certified by Apple, like WHQL

Cons

Will install only on Apple Hardware, cos if they release for the masses like Windows/Linux, they will go bankrupt soon due to piracy. A good way to prevent that is to tie the Hardware to the OS, which they are doing.

Over expensive, the users act elite, like they are the only ones using a computer, who knows how to use a computer

[aryayush]

Okay, time for some myth-busting. Hold onto your seatbelts, it is going to be a long and bumpy ride! 'gxsaurav', please do read this post, it just might do you some good and I do not mean that sarcastically.

The best thing about Windows is that, it has a lot of 3rd party developers, a lot of options to choose from which all work perfectly, unlike Mac, where there are only a few applicationThere are more than four thousand four hundred and twenty free applications available for download for Mac OS X from Apple's official site itself. The paid software and the ones that are not listed on Apple's site, constitute a far higher number. I have been using the Mac for over four months now and I have yet to run into a single issue which requires me to boot into Windows to use some Windows specific application. I can view all sorts of video formats and listen to any audio. I can view any webpage on the internet using either Opera, Safari or Firefox, I can make a website, do photo, audio and video editing, web conferencing, read my emails, store my addresses, watch DVDs, use any instant messaging protocol... you name it! And to top that off, in case there is some wierd application that IS Windows specific, I can boot into Windows. For example, I can use FrontPage on my Mac, but you cannot use iWeb on your PC. The only difference between Windows and Mac is the QUANTITY of applications, not the VARIETY. If there are fifty media players on the Windows platform, there are ten on a Mac - but how many do you actually use?

the monopoly of Apple made apps rule the Mac market. Music player, well....its itunes, which monopolizes the Mac music player market. Video viewer well quicktime, cos apple bundles with the OS.You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties. However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows (just like everything else). Apple also has a comprehensive, properly organised and easily searchable list of most applications developed for the Mac platform on it's website.

go & remove QuickTime, your MacOS will seize to function properly, as whole MacOS uses QuickTime engine, it's deeply integrated, just like WMP is on XP SP2You know what, I tried that and it did not affect my system at all. In fact, had someone else removed it, I would never have noticed it's gone unless I clicked on it's icon (which even tells me that the application is in the Trash - more on this at the end of the post *) or tried opening some QuickTime movie (and I can use VLC media player or NicePlayer to open that too). And uninstalling it was as simple as dragging it and dropping it onto the Trash in the dock. On the other hand, there is no uninstall option in even Vista for removing Windows Media Player should you feel like doing so.

In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista, now whose copying.Would you mind clearing out your facts before posting them on public forums and showing off your... intelligence! :p
Press 'Command+Space' and type 'Q-U-I', hit return and QuickTime Player will be launched. In Windows Vista, press the Windows key, type 'M-E-D-I-A- -P', press the down arrow key and Windows Media Player will be launched. Obviously, Vista did not copy Spotlight at all, it was just a coincidence!
Spotlight has had the ability to lauch applications since it's inception, the feature will just be refined in Leopard so that you can launch applications will just three keys or two clicks and there will be a recent items menu built into Spotlight itself for even quicker launching of applications. This feature is not in Vista yet, but given that Apple has already publicly announced it, it's just a matter of a year or two before it is introduced in Vista by MS.

u r talking about recovering files, like we windows users can't use search at allLOL! Don't tell me you actually used the built-in search in Windows XP. I tried that a few times but gave it up as a bad job after repeated failures. And don't even get me started on how much time each search took to complete before returning the result:
'Sorry! No results found. Would you like to make future searches faster?
'No, thanks for your trouble though! I'll try to ensure that I don't misplace any files in the future and call on your highness!!'
At least, you can give credit to Windows for keeping its users organised. I am becoming very lazy about organising since switching to the Mac. I did start using search in XP again though, when Google intervened and gave us Google Desktop Search.

& who said i have never used a Mac?I think that would be me. I am sorry if I was wrong, but evidence so far suggests that you are as unaquainted to a Mac as a Penguin to Kolkata (for lack of a better simile).

U really are a troll fanboyI suppose that's the truest statement in your entire post and it is, I suppose, the only thing you can say that you won't be demanded a reason for. I have no concrete proof to prove this statement false, so go ahead, use it as much as you can. At least, we won't have to hear the rest of the ridiculous things that we can prove false with absolute certainty and make you look like a fool. BTW, you are really hurting the venerable J.K. Rowling's sentiments be calling me a troll - you see, I am a really thin, average height guy who can speak english and has no wooden club to mash people like... never mind!

About Parallels, ... it sux, it's good for Mactel only.Did I say anything otherwise? I said that 'Parallels is definitely the best choice there is' for running Windows on a Mac simultaneously. I never mentioned anything about Parallels Workstation 2.2 for Windows.

u cannot install MaOS X in Parallels workstation for Windows or VmwareAgain, I never mentioned anything contradicting that and anyway, that IS the beauty of it! THAT is why I encourage people to buy a Mac, because that is the ONLY legal way to use Mac OS X. And the illegal way is very difficult to get up and running, and even then it will be plagued with lots of driver and compatibility problems.

*Quick tip: Did you know that alises (shortcuts) on a Mac are dynamic and intelligent, not boring and stupid like in Windows. You make a shortcut to a file on your desktop in Windows (even Vista) and then delete the file. Click on the shortcut and you will get a message similar to:
'Error! The file you are trying to lauch has either been moved or no longer exists.'
WOW, that's helpful! If you know that much about the file, why couldn't you have just updated yourself when the file was either moved or deleted? And why are you leaving it on me to find out whether the file has been moved or deleted? Can't you just tell me that youself!
On a Mac, the aliases will always point to the file no matter where you move it. You can rename it, re-locate it, delete it, do anything with it. If it is on the system (apart from the trash), the shortcut will launch the file. If it's in the trash, the shortcut will tell you just that and offer to move it back for you and launch it. And even if it has been completely eliminated from the system, the shortcut will tell you that the file no longer exists on your system and will offer you the option of allowing it to delete itself. Now, that's user-friendliness! That is what speaks quality and attention to detail. That is why Apple makes outstanding products and others try to ape them!

See, I do not mean to abuse you or discredit you in any manner conceivable. You can only truly realise the beauty of using a Mac once you have done so for an appreciable length of time, say one week. You can simply NEVER return to the PC or Windows after that, unless you really start missing your anti-virus software or the Blue Screen of Death! I, as a genuine and friendly advisor, suggest you to please visit an Apple authorised reseller and ask them to give you a demo of an iMac (they are generally very glad to do so) and have a look at how things are done in the civilised world.
CAUTION: Please follow the above step only if you have the money to buy the iMac! I am not responsible for any mental instability that you might experience due to the result of having used an iMac and not being able to own it.

And, in the end, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or some other deep sort of stuff by my rambling (though I did use extreme caution to avoid doing so). However, if you are not willing to pardon me, let me warn you that I have no bucks to pay you in case you decide to sue me! You might want to sue Apple instead as it is becoming a hobby and a potential profession nowadays! People are suing them left, right and centre for all the wackiest reasons and are making some quick bucks. :p Apple, it seems, is also following the same policy and it suing people for naming their products with anything resembling 'POD'. That, according to them, is a new type of 'thinking different'!


EDIT: I saw mediator's reply after posting mine and am therefore editing it to add this:
Sorry to be offensive, but dude If I start to reply to this post(#37) of urs quoting every single line, then I can promise I can make u look even more pathetic.I guess I already did that. But there is nothing to be embarassed about as long as you realise that there are some things where others are better than you and other things where you are better than others. For example, I have always loved your reviews and tutorials about Windows stuff, you are good at them. However, you simply cannot hold your own in a platform vs. platform debate unless you have used both of them extensively. But that does not mean that...U shudn't take parts in debates where u have one sided knowledge.You should. You really should! After all, it's great fun replying to your wacky and absurd posts! And, who knows, you might even have a few valid points every now and then. After all, Windows does have a few good things that a Mac doesn't. For example, ... the games ... the patches for games ... the demos ... XBOX compatibility ..... there are a few more... umm, never mind! :p

[goobimama]

I can't help it! I have to add to the already huge amount of pasting that someone is getting here.

In leopard, Spotlight will for the first time have functionality to launh applications, something we already got in Vista,
LOL! If Vista ever debutes, I will light sixteen candles on my dogs back and run around a tree made of chocolate.

& who said i have never used a Mac?
I do too!

Thing is, iTunes and quicktime as so well integrated into the system, that one does not feel like touching them. You invoke frontrow, you get your music library. You are just about making a web page in iWeb (personally, I don't), all you iPhoto pictures are there. Its a seamless blend of perfectly designed applications that no one in their right mind would like to remove any of them.

MS will be removing some of the security features in vista
Obviously. All the antispyware, antivirus, antiwhatever needs to make some money of their own. If MS is totally secure, the second most selling application, the Antivirus suite, would go totally useless.

Which reminds me, any idea on which is the least annoying antivirus software out there? I needed it on one of them office PCs. Each one is worse than a virus...

And what the hell has Linux got to do with all this? I've tried linux but every time i install, I have to run around the net searching for drivers and applications. There is no unity (an official Linux website). It is powerful no doubt, but one has to work to get it to do what you want. If one likes to tinker around "a lot", then linux is it!

Again, I'm bored and cannot get sleep....

[gxsaurav]

There are more than four thousand four hundred and twenty free applications available for download for Mac OS X from Apple's official site itself.

U yourself said, what I wanted to say, there are more apps in Windows that means more choices.

Itunes , QuickTime etc is integrated, & no one likes to remove them, well, so is WMP & it works fine, so why are people commenting about it, cos it's MS, they have the market share, & they rule the market.

You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties.

Of course it is a monopoly, if it is not, then why do u say, IE is crap & WMP is crap or Photo viewer in vista is crap, even Windows users will prefer a MS developed app, integrated in Windows instead of paying for it. But, other fan boys call it monopoly of MS

However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows

Mind stating how it is hard ? R u saying we do not have the option to select file types to integrate with applications such as Media players or Image viewers in them...wow...I find your knowledge amusing

I hardly use search, that too when find a specific system file, cos I know how to manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?

the reason i don't like Apple are....

well, just read the previous post & prove me wrong

About parallels, well....I was just informing where it lacks, don't know how u took it

And what the hell has Linux got to do with all this? I've tried Linux but every time I install, I have to run around the net searching for drivers and applications. There is no unity (an official Linux website). It is powerful no doubt, but one has to work to get it to do what you want. If one likes to tinker around "a lot", then Linux is it!


U pushed the last nail in the coffin, the biggest problem with Linux, that u have to read half of Google to find anything :D . Now no comments on Linux & Windows, meditator, this is the grand truth isn't it


by the way, i was comparing Linux just to show where it stand over Mac. Apple has taken a lot from open source community, what have they given back.


if u know apple shake 4.1, it was relesed a few months back with Mactel support, & the price was reduced for Mac from $3000 to $499, it is also available for fedora core 4, & now u tell me meditator, is it right to make it for fedore core only, i mean, Linux is Linux inside right, so the kernal is same.....& if it is soooo standerd complient, then why doesnt't it work with other linux, i think it's the mistake of Apple right, well, let me tell u the cost of Shake 4.1 for Linux, it's still $3000, so insted of buying it for linux, u can very well get yourself a nentry lavel macPro +Shake 4.1 for Mac. but hey, it's valid, it's ok if apple copies from open soure applications & MS, they are elite....cos it's Apple, it's ok if they force users to buy a Mac to run MacOS X & still say Windows is bad, cos it's Apple. Just tell me one thing, do u guys get paid to right about Mac or what? About linux i can understand, it's spreading, but Mac, Mac Fanboys are the worst

I used Mac, long before u guys ever tried it on PearPC or other such emulators, I used it in OS X 10.1 & 10.2 days, & it was not what it is today, it has developed, & apple charges for the new version, which are more like service packs, this adds to my previous post about the cons of Apple & MacOS X that it is overpriced

Still, no one has said anything regarding the points I mentioned above, stating the pros & cons of MacOS X & Windows....any takers.

Well, i have been called a fanboy, i have been called an ignorent brat & whatever...well, i don't care what u guys say, I just had enough of this nonsence here fighting on point, that u guys don't even know about

[mediator]

Windows users are victimized? How come

Oh brother! U still say such things after I proven u wrong numerous times in that Linux Vs windows thread?? Guess u really dont read mah posts. Then all I can say is just experience Linux, get used to it and work on it normally for atleast a month without ur windows fanboyism!

And dude now u devating the topic to Mac VS Linux?? HOw pathetic can u get than this? Neways I like to know about that too, but u lost all mah trust in ur posts now. More than half the time u speak rubbish, post absurdly outta ignorance and at the end say "Whoops sorrry"!

Make some valid points (atleast one) so that every one may start liking ur posts!

[gxsaurav]

meditator, read the Windows vs Linux thread

[mediator]

^^ Huh, :D amusing. U tell me that? First complete by replying to mah previous posts there, then I promise to make u look more miserable! :)

[eddie]

You say that like it's a bad thing. First of all, when you are using a Mac, you will - in all likelihood - prefer an Apple application to those made by third parties. However, if you do not wish to do so, the process of changing the default application for a specific task is simpler on a Mac than on Windows (just like everything else). Apple also has a comprehensive, properly organised and easily searchable list of most applications developed for the Mac platform on it's website. I don't understand much of what gxsaurav is writing but this is one point of his that I did understand. He means that if Microsoft integrates stuff like Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer in its Operating System, the whole world makes a huge issue out of it and they get sued for millions. On the other hand when Apple does the same i.e. to integrate itunes, quicktime etc. in its OS, no one is saying anything. His problem is that people under such conditions act like fanboys instead of thinking logically. As far as sending itunes to trash and not noticing it, well you can do the same for windows media player but then European Commission didn't like it that way but they don't have any problems with Apple ;)

I personally feel that moving to Intel architecture will bring more attention to Apple and hence more law suites as well. I would love to see Apple getting sued just like how Microsoft was. That will clean some of their sins of not contributing back to open source :D

[gxsaurav]

thanx eddie, atleast someone understood my points

I don't have problem with linux or Mac, i got problems with it's fanboys. They act rubish, they speak like their OS is flawless & only Windows has flaws, anything Microsoft is bad, well then why use Microsoft Office on Mac, why not use openoffice on Mac.

The problems with Mac, are those i pointed out above, on which no one has replied. Mac is just preety UI, & a bubble that it's secure, it has no market share, why should someone make an adware for it, when only a minority will be affected, insted of making it for Windows, which is used widely

& yes, i m again saying, apple has a monopoly in Mac applications, I m not wrong regarding the fact about Apple shake 4.1 i pointed above

[eddie]

thanx eddie, atleast someone understood my points Not points...just one point. Rest of it was Quantum Physics for me :p

[aryayush]

U yourself said, what I wanted to say, there are more apps in Windows that means more choices.Umm... I also said that 'the only difference between Windows and Mac is the QUANTITY of applications, not the VARIETY. If there are fifty media players on the Windows platform, there are ten on a Mac - but how many do you actually use?' You seem to have missed that point. Tell me one thing, how many media players are there for windows in the market? Say about hundred, or maybe more. Do you, as a Windows user, ever feel the need to use more than four media players? I have QuickTime, iTunes, RealPlayer, VLC media player and NicePlayer installed on my system and I rarely use anything other than QuickTime or iTunes. HOW IN THE WORLD DOES IT MATTER IF YOU HAVE A HUGE NUMBER OF STUPID CHOICES!!! It only makes things complicated. At the end of the day, you want the job done best and any application which lets you do it will be the one, and only one, you use.

Itunes , QuickTime etc is integrated, & no one likes to remove them, well, so is WMP & it works fine, so why are people commenting about itWho is commenting about it apart from you? I never said a word against WMP. I only said that there is no straightforward method of uninstalling it and that is true. And I mentioned even that only because you started the topic about QuickTime being difficult to uninstall and all that crap. Personally, I had never even tried uninstalling WMP when I used Windows because it is one of the best media players for Windows and it is better than QuickTime IMHO. It has more options, richer features, lots of customisation options and above all, it is completely free, unlike QuickTime. The only problem is that it is a bit bloated and works slow, but it's okay. I don't mind that and I never complained about WMP. You can search the forum for it and I'm sure you won't find a comment against WMP from me.

Of course it is a monopoly, if it is not, then why do u say, IE is crapBecause it is. What? You think IE is a good browser? Hey friends, listen up here, this guy actually thinks Internet Explorer is a good browser!!! Unbelievable stuff!
Mate, follow my advice, please DO NOT leave your house alone from now on and visit a psychiatrist ASAP!

Mind stating how it is hard ? R u saying we do not have the option to select file types to integrate with applications such as Media players or Image viewers in them...wow...I find your knowledge amusingDid I say it was hard? Let me check... umm, I'm sorry but I cannot find the part where I said that.
I said it was simpler on a Mac than on Windows. Just because adding 'one' and 'two' is easy, does not mean that adding 'forty' and 'twenty' is difficult - the former is just simpler.

I hardly use search, that too when find a specific system file, cos I...... have no other option but to...manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?Okay, so if we lost a file and the OS cannot find it for us, it is us who do not know how to use the thing. Brilliant! How do you come up with such stuck up comments? I swear you are spending too much of your time on Nickelodean!

apple charges for the new version, which are more like service packsHave you used Panther? Have you used Tiger? How can you say they are like service packs when you haven't? And if you have... it proves how simple a Mac is to use!

I will reply to the rest later. Got tutions now and am in a terrible hurry. Bye!
__________
anything Microsoft is bad, well then why use Microsoft Office on Mac, why not use openoffice on Mac.Let me enlighten you about the reason. About 90% of the people in the world use Microsoft Windows and most of them use Microsoft Office as their office software. Now, if Mac users do not use MS Office, they will be at loss themselves because the software they use instead won't be compatible with the standard MS formats. Therefore, we use MS Office. Now, OpenOffice has almost native-like support for the MS formats but MS Office is far better when compared to OpenOffice. Having said that, the MS Office suite for Mac is far better than all the versions of Office for Windows before the latest beta of MS Office Professional 12.

The problems with Mac, are those i pointed out above, on which no one has replied. Mac is just preety UI, & a bubble that it's secure, it has no market share, why should someone make an adware for it, when only a minority will be affected, insted of making it for Windows, which is used widelyWhatever! Forget the reason. The fact is that you are very very secure on a Mac when compared to Windows. Why are you blaming it on the lack of market share or the disinterest of virus writers? What matters that there hasn't been a single virus for OS X yet that has affected anyone severly. Only two very small viruses have been discovered till now and they only did very minor damage to very stupid users (so you might be unsecure even with OS X :p ).

[gxsaurav]

Whatever! Forget the reason. The fact is that you are very very secure on a Mac when compared to Windows. Why are you blaming it on the lack of market share or the disinterest of virus writers? What matters that there hasn't been a single virus for OS X yet that has affected anyone severly. Only two very small viruses have been discovered till now and they only did very minor damage to very stupid users (so you might be unsecure even with OS X ).

A Flaw in Windows = critical, life threatening for a computer

A flaw in Mac = just a low level flaw,

Yeah right

& let me tell u one thing, u must be either joking or lying when u said u uninstalled QuickTime & still your Mac, itunes, iphoto were working fine

QuickTime is integrated in MacOS X quite deeply, itunes uses QuickTime audio engine & decoders to play music (this is not core audio), iphoto uses QuickTime image decoders & rendering engine to show the pictures on your screen, imovie uses QuickTime video engine to show the preview of movies in it

now, if u say, u uninstalled QuickTime, & still things worked fine, then this clearly means that even if u uninstall QuickTime in MacOS X, it just removes the player front-end & not the QuickTime decoders & engine, so again this is busting the myth of Mac users that u can completely remove anything in Mac, even Apples own software.

Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stable, if they release it publicly MacOS X will no longer be this stable, it will start to crash, cos there will be 3rd party drivers for it which may & may not be Apple certified

On a PC, things are different, there is an enormous number of hardware to choose from, u can use any kind of config, it's a great value for money, u can install on the same PC Windows or Linux, and however u cannot install MacOS on it, cos apple has tied it to their own hardware.

Due to this huge number of Hardware & software, stability problems arise, the cases of a BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million.

[mediator]

manage my computer. That is what i said in my previous post, unless u know how to use an operating system u can't say it sux....u guys really don't know how to use Windows do U?

Please dont say such things, the people who use mac/linux here may be much better windows users than u, they might know much better than u on windows . But still despite all their tremendous efforts to keep windows in good shape, if they find windows weak in several apsects and mac/linux better than whats their fault??
Neways same can be said for u here, though u dont use mac/linux properly or r a noob, u still say they sux or r weak??
From the observation, I'm beginning to find MAC a good, strong distro and the supporters r giving convincing statements too! But still I wont form mah opinion if its weak or strong until I experience it mahself!
Neways from this post of urs it seems that 99.99% ppl dont know how to use windows and only u know the best! And then u say windows is user friendly, easy, stable........ etc? This statement of urs will mean that windows is more geeky than mac/linux!


Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stable, if they release it publicly MacOS X will no longer be this stable, it will start to crash, cos there will be 3rd party drivers for it which may & may not be Apple certified

Also please stop making such annoying and absurd statements and using clauses like "If it wud have been","if they release","they will","in the past" or whateva. DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!

I guess this forum needs another section christened "MAC or APPLE" so that mac supporters don't make u look extremely miserable. And people like u and me can really be enlightened about MAC!

So please make valid points here and make the discussion and my observation interesting!

[aryayush]

A Flaw in Windows = critical, life threatening for a computer

A flaw in Mac = just a low level flaw,

Yeah rightI have yet to hear of ONE case where a Mac user was infected by a virus. The two cases I spoke of were also ones that I had heard at news sites. On the other hand, I have heard many complaints of serious viruses infecting PCs in Siliguri itself. To heck with others, I have myself Windows XP (and 98 before that) several times due to viruses. And are you seriously wanting to debate on PC viruses vs. Mac viruses? Man, you must be crazy!

& let me tell u one thing, u must be either joking or lying when u said u uninstalled QuickTime & still your Mac, itunes, iphoto were working fine

QuickTime is integrated in MacOS X quite deeply, itunes uses QuickTime audio engine & decoders to play music (this is not core audio), iphoto uses QuickTime image decoders & rendering engine to show the pictures on your screen, imovie uses QuickTime video engine to show the preview of movies in it

now, if u say, u uninstalled QuickTime, & still things worked fine, then this clearly means that even if u uninstall QuickTime in MacOS X, it just removes the player front-end & not the QuickTime decoders & engine, so again this is busting the myth of Mac users that u can completely remove anything in Mac, even Apples own software.Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications, I can only call it clever and resourceful engineering on the part of Apple's OS engineers. They are intelligent enough to allow me to remove QuickTime without making the other applications suffer. That's cool! What exactly do you want to prove by saying that we cannot uninstall Apple's software completely anyway? If we uninstall QuickTime and it is removed so completely that everything else goes kaput, you start complaining. If we uninstall QuickTime and everything works fine, you start cribbing that QuickTime is not fully gone. Did QuickTime stick it's leg up your... BEEP!

Just because of Apple's own software, their own drivers, their own hardware, it's so stableAnd your point is? It's stable, check. It's got great bundled applications, check. It is not prone to virus attacks and hackers, check. It can beat the crap out of any other operating system any given day, check. So, what seems to be the problem? How Apple maintains that is upto them. The point is that they offer absolute value for money. They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it.Also please stop making such annoying and absurd statements and using clauses like "If it wud have been","if they release","they will","in the past" or whateva. DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!Exactly.

u can install on the same PC Windows or Linuxu can install on the same Mac Windows or Linux too

Due to this huge number of Hardware & software, stability problems ariseAre you a developer or an end user? I am an end user and I couldn't care less why the problems arise, all I know is that they are there on Windows and not on a Mac, which is why I prefer the latter. I don't need any stupid justifications.

the cases of a BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million.This one really had me in splits. The BSD is seen by only one in a million users!!! I would put that figure closer to one in every... maybe... one and a half! I myself have seen it so many times that I have lost count. And you have too, I am ultra sure of the fact. And you can conduct a poll here and see how many people have seen it. In fact, I AM posting a poll about it right now. We'll see the results in a week.

[Zeeshan Quireshi]

well mate i haven't ever seen the BDOS ever . n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it , it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD

[gxsaurav]

well mate I haven't ever seen the BDOS ever. n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it, it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD

Well said zeeshan, now I wonder, if Mac users are allowed to find out how which bin file work in Mac etc

Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications..............

Can u plz read above, I wrote this line just to prove that u are wrong when u said u can uninstall anything completely from MacOS X, unlike Windows where everything is integrated & removing it will give problems with OS. Just uninstall WMP in Windows XP or Vista, the engine & decoders are still there, but the player is not. So, all these years u were wrong when u said in MacOS U can completely remove an application when u simply drag it to trash, that’s the point

By the way, isn’t this the same thing happening in Windows from a long time, & wait, even Windows 2000 users with WMP6.4 can play WMV HD files fine, by just installing the codec, however MacOS X jaguar users cannot play QuickTime 7 files, at least panther is required...wow, great value for money man

How Apple maintains that is upto them

how MS maintains windows is upto them, if they give a feature different from the one in other OS, however similar to some extent, u cannot say it's copying. Any graphics programmer can tell u Expose is not equal to Flip3D, the engine is different, the rendering is different, the technique is different, where do I see copying, no where

They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it

Yeah, u r right, that’s the only thing good in a Mac, application based UI, u have to hunt for an application to do a task, not do a task which runs the appropriate application automatically...so which one is better

The point is that they offer absolute value for money
read page one again

Mac mini = cheapest Mac, in which u cannot upgrade anything other then RAM = 35k

iMac = All in one Mac, in which u can only upgrade, RAM, for other upgrades call Apple & pay them high prices, cos they use gold plated high quality Hard disk sleeves & sockets = 63k

Mac Pro = Fastest computer yet, u only get 3 graphics card to chose from. One being low end, good for video workstation only, one being high end in DirectX & gaming but sux at openGL (workstation tasks), one being ultra high end workstation card which sux at gaming (If Windows is installed). Well.....can I plug in graphics card of my choice, no wait....I can't but still despite of being bound to the hardware with no upgrade option it's still a value for money...yeah right

Well, maybe I don't have white color in front of my eyes, but I don't see Value for money here

DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!

Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...r u still using it right now, should I start speaking about Macintosh System 7 & 9 UI & functionality

Are you a developer or an end user? I am an end user and I couldn't care less why the problems arise, all I know is that they are there on Windows and not on a Mac, which is why I prefer the latter. I don't need any stupid justifications.


if u don't know why they arise & if u don't want to know, then why r u saying it arises on Windows just cos Windows is bad, it's not Windows, it's poorly written application & drivers which do not pass proper validation, those which do, hardly ever create a crash, u do need justification. u were the one who started saying windows is bad & full of BSD, hey, why don't u mention about the kernel panic of MacOS

suppose u buy a car, & it doesn't starts, will u start complaining the manufacturer & buy a new car or find out why it is not starting

This one really had me in splits. The BSD is seen by only one in a million users!!!

u got some problem in reading text or what,,......read again

The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million

[mediator]

well mate I haven't ever seen the BDOS ever. n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it, it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSOD

Thats one of the causes. Bsod's also occur due to installation of incompatible drivers (which i have seen bundled most of the times with hardwares cds), heat,ram problem,some softwares installed and a lotta other cases! Sometimes they leave u cluesless even when u know a lot about BSODs and then u refer to non-microsoft sites and forums coz MS supprt site is pathetic and rarely of use.
So its not "only when we tinker with system files"! Its has other cases too!



DEbate is on present scenario and not about past,future or something that may be possible!

Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...


Thats a poll created to express ur views according to thread creators wish. He may include win 95, linux, mac,unix or whateva. U have some problem?? Thats not a debate!! This is a debate! Have some crystal clear understanding and clear ur confusions about debates and polls!! Neways u wanna complaint about that thread then complaint in that thread.


if u don't know why they arise & if u don't want to know, then why r u saying it arises on Windows just cos Windows is bad, it's not Windows, it's poorly written application & drivers which do not pass proper validation, those which do, hardly ever create a crash,

Dunno about him, but I don't say windows is bad! But then according to this statement of urs who are the victims?? Do the people have to be serious geeks to know such things to work on windows?? This statement of urs clearly tells how weak windows is, that even poorly written apps can crash the whole OS in one go!! So windows stable?? forget it!!


suppose u buy a car, & it doesn't starts, will u start complaining the manufacturer & buy a new car or find out why it is not starting

Have some sense of giving appropriate examples dude!!
We buy clean XP without SP1 and Sp2 , we dont get a clue why BSOD's occur, shall we start finding the problem ourselves in windows?? If everyone was that good/geeky , then I guess even UNIX wud have been wiped out of existence!! Why did XP gave us "error reporting" service?? HOw did they released SP1 and SP2? All by themselves?? Did they tested that much themselves?? Open ur eyes dude and get rid of ur annoying and absurd fanboyism. Get some enlightenment dude. Customers feedback are a major part in sofware maintanence and improvement!! This is the last topic in software engineering if u remember i.e "TEsting and debugging" ! Why did they released "VISTA betas and all" and not the final official product??
So if a new car gets problems then it will get replaced ( or may get repaired by the customer himself ), but since u have no sense of giving examples too, I'll say we'll complaint against Microsoft if Xp didnt worked the first time. And to tell u thats a major fact in US. Most people openly complaint against MS and get their money back or problem solved coz customer care and customer rights are given importance there!! WHo'll ask to repair windows? They might get another BSOD! How can the customer fix the closed source software himself even if he's extreme geek forget about the noobs?? Shud the customer wait for a week/months/yrs to get the updates or service packs?? So have some sense and give some comparable examples in future!

Neways nice the debate is getting interesting

[eddie]

Maybe you are right. However, that does not prove anything. iTunes has to use some technology to play movies and if it shares the technology with QuickTime so as to save on resources and not have to use two separate engines for doing the same task for different applications, I can only call it clever and resourceful engineering on the part of Apple's OS engineers. They are intelligent enough to allow me to remove QuickTime without making the other applications suffer. That's cool! What exactly do you want to prove by saying that we cannot uninstall Apple's software completely anyway? If we uninstall QuickTime and it is removed so completely that everything else goes kaput, you start complaining. If we uninstall QuickTime and everything works fine, you start cribbing that QuickTime is not fully gone. Did QuickTime stick it's leg up your... BEEP! You don't get the point do you? He is just saying that the scenario is similar to that of Windows Media Player. Microsoft was sued by RealNetworks for showing exactly that kind of "resourceful engineering".
http://news.com.com/EU+slaps+record+fine+on+Microsoft/2100-1001_3-5178281.html
They were forced to produce an entirely different version of Windows for Europe. Microsoft were forced to pay a huge sum of money as fine because they showed "resourceful engineering". He is just saying that everything about Microsoft seems wrong to people and people get their panties up their a$$es while Microsoft's rivals are doing the same things.

And your point is? It's stable, check. It's got great bundled applications, check. It is not prone to virus attacks and hackers, check. It can beat the crap out of any other operating system any given day, check. So, what seems to be the problem? How Apple maintains that is upto them. The point is that they offer absolute value for money. They make refined products that are far better than what others develop and they deliver a wonderful user interface to go with it.
Recently Vista tried to do the same. They blocked kernel level hooks to provide better stability/security but all the Antivirus and other security software manufacturing companies threw a fit. Some of them were threatening (not in clear terms) to sue Microsoft again. What choice did Microsoft have? They had to open Kernel level insertions. Now, why does no one care about Apple when they are doing the same? Its simple...Apple are minnows in Desktop segment. Going after them would be foolish waste of monetary resources. So rather than justifying that what they are doing is right...just enjoy...just enjoy till it lasts!!! It won't be long before people will be whipping Apple's a$$es and I for one would love that day :D
__________
Thats a poll created to express ur views according to thread creators wish. He may include win 95, linux, mac,unix or whateva. U have some problem?? Thats not a debate!! This is a debate! Have some crystal clear understanding and clear ur confusions about debates and polls!! Neways u wanna complaint about that thread then complaint in that thread. Someone else mentioned about this thread in that thread before he did something like this...
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showpost.php?p=326287&postcount=32

Seriously man...cut the kid some slack...

[gxsaurav]

Bsod's also occur due to installation of incompatible drivers (which i have seen bundled most of the times with hardwares cds), heat,ram problem,some softwares installed and a lotta other cases!

This is what i m trying to tell u from day one, it's not the flaw of Windows because of which BSD & crashes come, it's also the flaw of 3rd party applications

This statement of urs clearly tells how weak windows is, that even poorly written apps can crash the whole OS in one go

So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash

& seriously meditator better if u stay in that Windows vs Linux thread only, this is Windows vs Mac thread, i don't u have ever used a Mac, have u?

arayush

abe can't u read properly or what, I clearly said, Cases of BSD in Windows with WHQL drivers are one in a million, i never said, chances of BSD in Windows with improper drivers & poorly written application are rare.

Or u just don't know what WHQL is, Apple does the same thing, they test & validate the drivers for MacOS cos there are only a few hardware solution to chose from, only a few chipsets, only a few CPU, & only a few graphics card, so, they have total control over the driver checking phase, however in case of Windows there are many hardware configs available, MS checks most of them, but can't check all, else drivers will take 2 months to relese, & then u will again whine, that driver releses on Windows are slower, u just need a point to troll isn't it

In the end...i would say, this thread can be easily concluded as

Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box

Microsoft cannot make Windows secure

Microsoft cannot give features in Windows

Microsoft cannot give a stable platform due to a very huge ammount of hardware & softares available (more then 4500 for Mac atleast)

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed

When this symantec & MS battle started over Kernel patchguard, i said one line in a thread i remember, that Symantec will soon sue MS & say " U cannot make Windows secure, you are not allowed to" which is what exectly happened

& in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn), it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs), it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).

[mediator]

Someone else mentioned about this thread in that thread before he did something like this...
http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/show...7&postcount=32

I know that bro! but the quotation I marked and u marked are different! In one person is just telling that he added a poll and in other the person is fighting over that poll in this thread ! I hope u got the point. He may add a poll too of his choice! Why fight over it??


So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crash

Sorry to burst the bubble. But I can promise Linux wont crash like pathetic windows with poorly written apps!! Wanna get enlightened how?? Then open a thread on open source section and i'll enlighten u with full fledged details!! I dunno about mac!! Ur noob to linux, so please dont fight on linux and add further misery to urself!! U Better stay quiet about Linux.


& in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn), it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs), it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).

It seems u like to share plight of windows and justify it a lot. If an OS is stable then its stable, why make stupid justifications?? Why r u justifying ur misery on windows due to crashes because of blablabla. The point is that it crashes. If the day comes when mac starts to crash, then I may change mah opinion about mac. But then its "If that day comes"! Talk about today and dont make justifications that viruses attack windows becoz its popular. If its popular then it shud have gotten a lot more secure than linux/mac since the day the windows thing started and the heart of windows shud have been virus-proof by now !! Don't blame the politics for that.

If a customer wants stability,security etc and shown with boxes one with windows and other with mac/linux etc, then he will just see the performance and stability and all he wants. He wont give a damn to the manufacturer's politics and its plight or show some brotherhood to the company!


Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box

Present scenario!


Microsoft cannot make Windows secure

It shud have by now!!


Microsoft cannot give features in Windows

Who says?? It can and I guess u like to share their plight for it!

& seriously meditator better if u stay in that Windows vs Linux thread only, this is Windows vs Mac thread, i don't u have ever used a Mac, have u?

U need memory pills! I already told so many times, I'm here to know more about MAC. But if u say wrong about windows, then ofcors I'll quote u! So beware of talking nonsense and invalid statements.

[goobimama]

Seriously gx. If you were a hacker/cracker about to write a virus, would you like to be the creator of the 79430th virus for windows, or the first real virus for the mac, even though its just 4%. Tell me.

[gxsaurav]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gxsaurav
Microsoft cannot give features in Windows


Who says?? It can and I guess u like to share their plight for it!


Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed to


I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it

Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence

[aryayush]

well mate i haven't ever seen the BDOS ever . n any end user who uses his computer will not experience it , it's only when we tinker with system files and all that we rarely experience the BSODOf the thirty-one people who have voted in the BSoD thread (http://www.thinkdigit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38829), only six claim to have never experienced the BSoD. And I am not including people who did not vote but reported that they have seen many BSoDs.
You said that people do not experience BSoDs unless they tinker with the system files. First and foremost, it is not expected of a spanking new Windows XP installation to show a BSoD on first boot anyway and I never claimed that. And what do you mean by tinkering with system files? Opening some critical file in the 'system32' folder and editing it yourself? Or making changes to the boot configuration file? Well, not many people do those things, man. And those that do generally know what they are doing and therefore, do not experience many problems. The problems are faced by innocent end-users who see the BSoD due to some application install gone awry, some malware or virus, improper shutdown, taxing the OS beyond the capability of the hardware, etc. Who cares whose fault it is! The problem is that people have been experiencing the Blue Screen of Death in Windows since it's inception and the legacy has even been continued in Vista (red, in it's case). On the other hand, I have done lots of mods and hacks on my Macintosh and I have yet to experience a single crash. Applications hang sometimes, but it is as simple as right-clicking on their icon and selecting 'Force Quit'. They do not take the whole system down with themselves. And applications getting stuck is also a very rare phenomenon.

Well said zeeshan, now I wonder, if Mac users are allowed to find out how which bin file work in Mac etcIt's not easy to do so even on Windows. Only the most enthusiastic geeks do stuff like that and they have a level playing field on the Macintosh. You can execute a few lines of UNIX code and do stuff like controlling the speed of your fans and when they should come on. I have done it. But I messed it up. My MacBook Pro heated up like bread in the toaster after only fifteen minutes of usage and I panicked. And then it suddenly hung for... like, twenty seconds. Then I got this a message that said 'it seems there have been made some changes to the base code of your system which might lock up your system. Would you like to restore the defaults from the automatically backed up system files?' I hit return and my laptop started making a faint noise as the fans came back on. And it was restored to normal temperature within a few minutes. The OS should be able to handle follies made by the user because the user is not always as expert as Microsoft, and you guys, expect them to be.

Can u plz read above, I wrote this line just to prove that u are wrong when u said u can uninstall anything completely from MacOS X, unlike Windows where everything is integrated & removing it will give problems with OS. Just uninstall WMP in Windows XP or Vista, the engine & decoders are still there, but the player is not. So, all these years u were wrong when u said in MacOS U can completely remove an application when u simply drag it to trash, that’s the pointI said installing and uninstalling applications was as easy as dragging and dropping them wherever you want. And you know as well as the next person that it is a (comparatively) complicated process in Windows. I never objected to the fact that WMP or QuickTime cannot be completely uninstalled. How does it matter whether they are on the system or not. If you want to uninstall them, there should be a simple and straightforward method to do it and this is where Windows lags behind. As I already said, there is no setup wizard for uninstalling WMP in Windows. Furthermore, I only brought up the topic of uninstalling QuickTime because you said that uninstalling it will make the Mac OS go kaput. When I proved that wrong, you are making other excuses now. I already told you that I don't think any Windows user would want to uninstall WMP anyway and the same is true for the Mac, and I do not have any problem with Windows bundling WMP with it's OS. In fact, I would have had a problem if WMP was not bundled with Windows.

By the way, isn’t this the same thing happening in Windows from a long time, & wait, even Windows 2000 users with WMP6.4 can play WMV HD files fine, by just installing the codec, however MacOS X jaguar users cannot play QuickTime 7 files, at least panther is required...wow, great value for money manWhat do you mean by QuickTime 7 files? There is no seperate format for QuickTime 7. You must understand that technology has evolved since Mac OS X Jaguar and therefore, it cannot play the DivX and Xvid encoded files that Panther and Tiger handle with ease. The same is true for Windows too. Even WMP 6.4 cannot play DivX and Xvid encoded files.

Any graphics programmer can tell u Expose is not equal to Flip3D, the engine is different, the rendering is different, the technique is different, where do I see copying, no whereI see copying in the basic idea and also a lot of similarities in the implementation. The whole internet is abuzz with how MS has copied Flip 3D from Exposé but you won't agree. Actually, the reason you are not agreeing is that you have not used Exposé yet. Use it once and you will realise that Microsoft has simply ripped it off from OS X. But as I mentioned in the post on my blog, I really do not give a damn whether they copy or not. If they can implement it better in Windows, if they can somehoe refine the technology, it's good. But they actually came up with a poorer solution than Exposé. Can you tell me one useful purpose that Flip 3D serves apart from looking cool (and terribly alaised)? Exposé has a simplistic charm, a very refined and smooth animation and is single-handedly enough to convince anyone to buy a Mac. It is the best way ever to manage multiple windows. Period.

u have to hunt for an application to do a task, not do a task which runs the appropriate application automaticallyAs if Windows comes with every application you will ever need pre-installed and you do not need to hunt for any applications! Or maybe whenever you open a file that is not recognised, Windows automatically downloads the best application for it and runs it for you!! As if you never hunt for applications for Windows!
In fact, since Mac OS X comes with a lot of bundled applications with it and has a huge list of applications on it's website itself, it is easier to find an application for a Mac than it is for Windows.
No, actually it is the same if you know how to use Google. I never had a problem finding an application for Windows and I have yet to encounter a problem finding an application for the Mac. This is a very baseless point you mentioned.

Oh...k, then why were u talking about BSD in Windows 98 in the other thread...r u still using it right now, should I start speaking about Macintosh System 7 & 9 UI & functionalityI took the latest five releases of both the companies. You are debating on the whole OS X series here, so you should include all Windows version starting from Windows 98.
However, I am sure that even if you compare Windows 98 to Mac OS 9 (but not 8 and 7), you will find that the Mac was still better from the OS point of view... but it had a lot of compatibility problems and because it ran on PPC processors, it wasn't really ideal to buy a Mac at that time anyway. But the scenario has dramatically changed now and Macs clearly have an edge over PCs.
Why are you getting so insecure anyway!!! :p

u got some problem in reading text or what,,......read again

The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a millionI was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.

Microsoft was sued by RealNetworks for showing exactly that kind of "resourceful engineering".
http://news.com.com/EU+slaps+record+...3-5178281.htmlOkay, I did not know about that case. It indeed seems that Microsoft has been wronged out there and I am on MS' side in that case. However, this is all business. Apple has also been on the receiving end of countless lawsuits, albeit of a different nature. But still, I would have supported MS had my opinion counted in the matter.

So, where was i wrong in it? it's trus obviously that poorly written application can crash your system, i mean, u are speaking in a manner that if windows crashes due to a buggy driver it's not the fault of the driver it's the fault of Windows...wow, great thinking man. Like with a poorly written application Mac/Linux won't crashNo, it won't. One great example is Windows Messenger for Mac, it is a very buggy piece of software that hangs and crashes every now and then but it has never crashed my system. There have been some other third party apps too that have been buggy. But it's always the applications themselves that stop responding due to the bugs it has, it has never even affected the other applications running alongside, leave aside the whole operating system. You know what, that's the beauty of it. As a seasoned Windows user, it will be hard to believe for you (if and when you buy a Mac) that you can simply take your machine home, plug it in and start using it. You won't need to install security sotware and you won't need to restart your OS every now and then due to bugs or poorly written applications. It's the 'just works' nature of a Mac that truly makes it a worthy product and far better than what the competition has to offer.

Windows is Insecure, buggy, crashes like hell, lacks features out of the box

Microsoft cannot make Windows secure

Microsoft cannot give features in Windows

Microsoft cannot give a stable platform due to a very huge ammount of hardware & softares available (more then 4500 for Mac atleast)

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowedYou are insulting Microsoft by saying all that. Seriously, do you think the company is run by a bunch of stupid teenagers whom anyone can sue and make them do what they wish to! LOL! Microsoft is one of the biggest companies in the world and it is run by none other than Bill Gates, the richest man in the world and the most shrewd and successful entrepreneur and businessman. The company can take care of itself and it can buy companies like Symantec and RealNetworks if it wants to. And it definitely does not need wannabe Windows enthusiasts and random forumers like you and me to garner pity for the company. It is a giant multi-national behemoth that is responsible for the business, eductional and entertainment needs of millions of people around the globe and if it is not being able to handle the task effectively, whatever the reasons, it will have to shoulder the blame for it and nothing you or anyone can say is going to change that. Seriously, the way you said, 'they are not allowed', it sounded as if someone caught their hand, patted their cheek and said, 'Nahin munna, aise nahin karte!' Grow up!

& in case of Mac, they included everything out of the box (but no one sues them, no one gives a damn)So? Is that the company's fault? And you seem to have been missing the news nowadays, people are suing Apple like crazy for incredulous reasons such as 'iPod Nanos are easily scratched' and 'iPods are too loud' (just lower the volume, you twits!).

it's stable (it runs only on a few fixed hardware configs), the drivers are stable (as there are only a few hardware configs)That is their policy and it is effective. They have a much smaller market share because of that but those who are their customers are pretty satisfied with their computers and hold the company in high esteem.

it has no virus (tell me a single hacker who would like to crack 4% computer users out there only, insted of 90% others).You know what, most virus writers hack into an OS because there is money involved. These generally follow the easiest route available and therefore, attack products which are already full of security loopholes. Obviously, Windows is the ideal playing ground for them and therefore, there are so many viruses for Windows (and it IS Microsoft's fault, no matter what you say). But there are others who do it not for the bucks, but for the challenge it is, for the feeling of self-pride and satisfaction of having cracked a seemingly uncrackable piece of code. These virus writers try to hack Mac OS X and they do find flaws sometimes (which are promptly fixed by Apple, as also by Microsoft) but there are simply too few flaws to actually pose any serious security threat. Mac OS X has been around for a long time and Apple and enthusiasts like me have been boasting from day one about how secure it is - do you think there are no virus-writers who have been motivated to hack the Mac!!! LOL! I do agree that as Macs gain in popularity and have a wider user base (and that is bound to happen), there will undoubtedly be a lot of hackers who will be attracted towards the new vista (no pun intended) and will try to crack it. They may also unleash a few serious viruses, but the threat will always be negligible compared to Windows because, accept it now, Mac has been built from the ground-up with security firmly in place and is inherently more secure than any other operating system in existence and specially Windows.

I also have a little more to say about Exposé vs. Flip 3D. This is something I found once when reading something on the internet and saved it for future reference:
Eye-candy for the sake of eye-candy is pointless. Expose vs. Windows Flip 3D for application switching for example. Flip 3D (a 3D stack of your windows) is fancy and flashy but offers little to no value. Expose isn’t as flashy, just resizing some windows, but its hugely useful.

What so few fail to understand is that its not Apple’s flair for design that makes them succesful. Its how they USE that design to make their products more useful to the user. The iPod isn’t a success because it looks pretty (although it helps) or because its crammed with features (its not) its succesful because it does something, and does it REALLY WELL, play music, and now media. But unlike the Zune which lets you clutter up your interface with a background picture, the iPod keeps it clean. Visit just about any mySpace page and you’ll get lots of “eye candy”, and you won’t be able to read a thing (not that there is ever much worth reading).

KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.
This extract sums it up quite brilliantly, I must say. :)

[mediator]

Meditator, why r u quoting only half of what i said, why don't u write the full line & comment on that, and do u also have some problem in reading text.....can't u see what me & eddie said above

now, these are the problems, Microsoft cannot even fix this, not because they can't, but because they are not allowed to


U dont get fast do u? I already said that the customers aren't interested as to why the microsoft can't fix it. All know microsoft can fix it, but who cares if the things aren't going appropriately and according to MS. No body cares if they are not allowed to fix it. All the customer care about is performance!! So stop justifying ur silly MS support and fanboyism by saying "It can't", "They'll get sued", "Its politics" or whateva. MOst people don't even know such things and aren't bothered about it!

Neways u say I quote half the point?? I alread replied to such thing before, but doing so again specially for u coz it seems u have a very bad habit of forgeting what others already said and then keep making urself look miserable.


If a customer wants stability,security etc and shown with boxes one with windows and other with mac/linux etc, then he will just see the performance and stability and all he wants. He wont give a damn to the manufacturer's politics and its plight or show some brotherhood to the company!

Remember this?? Its just was mah previous post. Why didn't u quote this?? ANd I can bet u won't quote all my points in ur next post too !!

So stop saying that others dont quote u, coz u didn't even quoted/replied to even 30% of points made by me and points made by others in Linux Vs windows debate. All u did was make absurd,ignorant and invalid posts after posts and make personal comments. All were replied by me and none by u properly.


I clearly gave reason why Windows crashes, if it's the fault of the driver, u cannot blame Windows OS for it

U said it also crashes due to poorly written apps. Why r u changing statements?? Just because I proved u wrong on Linux and told How weak windows is?? Ur posts are getting miserable after each post.


Seems to me U & Aryaush are either one person playing as both...or connected in some trollish sence

Started to make personal comments again and radiate ur true form huh?? Why don't u quote other valid points instead?? Absurd,pathetic,obscure etc..... are the words I'll use to describe it. Don't u have nething better to say?? atleast make some valid points!! Ur giving new values to threshold of misery and make urself look even more pathetic!! Neways trollish? :D U a windows fanboy says such thing?? Amusing!

Can I and everyone expect some sane statements from u ?? MVP?? yea right!! U cudn't make a lotta valid point either here or in Linuxv Windows debate and I guess the stock of ur invalid points is over here too now.

I guess the thread will witness all kinda of absurd,personal comments now from u.

U totally ruined mah observation.

[drvarunmehta]

Apple comes up with all these great innovations while Microsoft copies from them and passes stuff off as their own. But at the end of the day it's a Microsoft OS that resides on more than 95% PC's and Microsoft that pockets all the cash. In my book that makes Apple the bigger idiot than Microsoft.

[eddie]

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you :lol:

[gxsaurav]

Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you :lol:

no man, he will patent the word, & release a new technology in Mac by the name iCopy, by which u can copy anything anywhere. & just because it's in Mac it won't be smiliar to normal copy paste

[aryayush]

I don't want to start an argument there so I am replying to your post here:
Again, if this thread is about BSD only, then why r u saying this thread is about Widnows vs Macintosh?blackpearl told me that including Windows 98 did not make sense, so I had to explain to him why I did that. Then Sourabh questioned that the number of BSoDs wasn't a yardstick for comaring two OSes, so I told him that I started a poll because you challenged me that BSoDs were very rare on a Windows PC. I do not wish to drag a Windows vs. Macintosh flame war in that thread at all.

& seriously, should i print it out & send to your home:mad: .....read again, i said, The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a millionI was talking about BSoDs in general and you say that 'The cases of BSD with WHQL drivers are one in a million'. What sense does that make! Why are you only considering one cause. We are talking about how often Windows crashes as opposed to a Mac. And even then we are only considering the BSoDs though there are other ways in which Windows crashes too - sometimes it just hangs, there are abrupt reboots sometimes, the interface changes to classic and refuses to change back no matter what you do, etc. - but I did not even include them.

We do not have access to Mac, we cannot say, if u r lieing about the fact that Mac don't get kernel panic & crashes, maybe even they do a lot, but we cannot find that outAs if I can be totally sure that you are not lying. As if you are Maryaada Purushottam! Why would I want to lie anyway! If I had faced some problem with my Mac, I would mention it without hesitation. But the fact is that there aren't any problems with my Mac to tell you about. Sure, I would have loved something like 'Hibernation' on my Mac, but given that it boots up faster than Windows XP (and even Vista) resumes from Hibernation, it is not a very sorely missed feature. And I simply haven't run into any problems with my Mac. I hasn't hung even once, it hasn't given me any strange error messages, and there are certainly no blue screens - it is working flawlessly.

MacOS X, 5 releses in 5 years:D , biggest joke of the century. just one major relese & 5 refreshes. How many Operating systems MC relesed in the same time

Windows XP
Windows XP MCE
Windows XP MCE 2005
Windows Mobile
Windows Mobile 2003
Windows XP tablet PC edition
Windows Server 2003 (then R2)

I count 7 of them.....now plz read againLOL! You have counted the releases not for the PC but for the mobile, tablet PC and server. LOL! How funny and insecure can you get! You might as well include Windows XP Service Pack 2 and Vista Beta 1, beta 2 and release candidate 1. You might also want to throw in the Windows XP unofficial service pack 3 (made by some third party)! Ha! Ha! You have single handedly provided me with hours of non-stop laughs for the past few days. Thanks! :p
__________
Believe me man...Apple would be the last company to ever complaint about "copying". A company that copied the kernel...the initial UI and every little app it has from random places would dare not even say the word "copy". I am sure that if you mention the word "copy" to Steve Jobs...he would be running a million miles away from you :lol:Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better.
On the other hand, MS copied Flip 3D from Exposé, but which is better (don't make fools of yourself by saying that you actually think Flip 3D is better than Exposé).
In the words of digit:
someone thinks of it, and others get inspired.
But that inspiration should result in a better product, not in one that is worse than the original.
Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear where Apple got stuff for OS X from.

[eddie]

Oh! Mind enlightening me where they copied these things from? You said 'random places' - isn't that a bit too vague.
And let us suppose they DID copy something from somewhere, but at least they did not dish out something that was worse than the original! They got the idea of Dashboard from Konfabulator, but which is better. You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...

[aryayush]

You are kidding right? You actually replied to the copy comment and that too in negative? My dear friend...look at Apple's history and you will be amazed what all Apple has copied and what all they have actually "created". They don't just copy stuff...they simply take the whole code...

They took BSD's kernel, they took Xerox's UI, they took KDE's browser (konqueror), they took CUPS printing engine, they took Kopete's code in iChat and you come in here talking about copying? Go to the Apple cave and start reading some history books. Also, don't make fool of yourself thinking that they create everything. Sheesh...Okay, since I don't know much about Apple's history, I won't argue with you. Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
And anyway, which is better: BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one? Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.
gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!

[eddie]

Maybe they did copy from the places you mentioned. However, you are exaggerating it by saying that they copied the code straight off. As if you were in their labs when they were copying and pasting it or you have compared the source codes!
Please stop fooling around...Again you come in and start talking crap. Go and get your facts right before you come in debating. If you don't know then don't just give lame a$$ arguments and make fun of other people by saying that they are fooling around.
It is a well known fact that Apple has been copying around GPL and other open source code. Since they copy stuff so blatantly they have to release their core source which has been diffed a million times by OSS engineers to see how much they copy...result...full fledged copying. Add to that the fact that they return cypher to OSS community and you have probably one of the most fugly leeching companies that OSS has to ever deal with.
And anyway, which is better: BSD's original kernel or Mac's refined one? Xerox's UI or Tiger's? Konqueror or Safari? Kopete or iChat? In all these comparisons, the latter is better than the former. What this translates into is an awesome and intutive end user experience that only a Mac can deliver. So, what is the harm in copying those features.Oh so copying is not bad cos it is Mac? Ok...fair enough...OSS community doesn't mind that. Just tell Mac fanboys to accept in open that 70% of what they worship has been copied stuff and we will stay in silence. At least give the credit where it is due...just saying that copying is not bad doesn't work. Also, Mac users are probably the biggest whiners when it comes to saying that Windows copied something. This is such hypocrisy I tell you...
Oh...and btw...BSD's kernel is a million times better. You show me one server running Mac OS and I will show you a million for each of them.
gxsaurav will undoubtedly pop in now and offer that there is no harm in copying Mac's features in Vista. Yes, there is not but at least give your customers something better than the original (or at least as good as it), damn it!Why? A few posts ago you said that it is upto Apple to manage their OS the way they want...then why shouldn't Microsoft be given that breathing space? If people find Windows so bad and Apple is offering them Nirvana then why don't they just move to Macintosh? What is stopping them? Some implanted chip in their brains that has been installed by Microsoft?