Caught speaking Malayalam, Apollo nurses asked to resign

[paroh]

Tue, May 26 04:10 AM


Indraprastha Apollo Hospitals on Monday asked two nurses to submit their resignations for speaking in their "native tongue" inside the hospital premises.
The nurses, Jincy Joseph and Lijy Menon (names changed to protect identity) were posted in ICU of the Cardio Thoracic Vascular Surgery (CTVS) department. The two said they will take their case to the National Human Rights Commission on Tuesday, challenging the hospital's decision.
Menon said they arrived for the afternoon shift at 1.45 pm. "We greeted each other in the lift lobby in Malayalam and did not realise that the nursing superintendent was standing behind us," Joseph said."
Menon added, "We spent the entire day apologising but we were not allowed to enter the ward after that."
The hospital's nursing superintendent, Usha Banerjee, said employees were encouraged to speak only in English within the premises. "We cater to an international clientele," Banerjee said. "In any case, speaking in native languages might jeopardise patient safety; we avoid talking in any language other than English while inside the hospital premises."
Asked whether the employees were dismissed, she said the nurses had not been dismissed yet. But both Menon and Joseph were told to tender their resignations to the evening superintendent.
"We have put in our papers," Joseph said. "More than the insult, we are outraged at the fact that we do not have the right to speak in our language. Since we were not in front of patients, or even inside the ward, this was not violation of rules per se."
Menon said they agree with the hospital rule prohibiting speaking in languages other than English in presence of the patients. "Any other language might make a patient uncomfortable," she said, "but we were in the lift lobby and had not even started our shift yet."
"Ninety per cent of nurses in the hospital are Malayalis. The hospital has no right to tell them which language to speak in. Nurses are mentally harassed and we will take this up with higher authorities," said Usha Krishna Kumar, president of the Malayali Nurses Welfare Association and wife of former Union Minister S Krishna Kumar.

Source
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/caught-speaking-malayalam-apollo-nurses-asked-to-resign/465842/0

[MetalheadGautham]

If they signed a bond/contract for service where they agreed to speak in English only as a condition for employment, I see nothing wrong with this action.

That's like a student enrolling himself in Satyabhama University (Chennai) and later telling that he was harassed by the university staff. By joining it he acknowledged that he will agree to be kicked around by their dumb rules.

[ichi]

Agree with MHG.

[NucleusKore]

^+1
If it's in the contract, IT'S IN THE CONTRACT

[x3060]

+1
very correct

[j1n M@tt]

I agree with the English speaking rule part, but firing employees for greeting each other is not gr8 act done by the authorities....I'm damn sure if they had done it in hindi, they won't be facing anything like this.

[hailgautam]

They were speaking in private and it is intrusion into private lives by Apollo if the Nursing Superintendent overhears them greet each other. Contracts or agreements can not over-ride fundamental rights. Being Indian it is our fundamental right to speak any language we wish and can speak. As long as it is not hampering the work and in this case lives of other people can not be a case for dismissal – I can’t see how greeting each other jeopardises other’s lives.

[NucleusKore]

Your private life is OUTSIDE your office

[Sunny1211993]

Poor nurses got pwned!

[Chirag]

jinsy.

[afonofa]

If they signed a bond/contract for service where they agreed to speak in English only as a condition for employment, I see nothing wrong with this action.

Why should there be a contract in the first place that allows only english to be spoken in an Indian hospital in India? When even MP's can speak in their native languages in the parliament, then how can a hospital make its employees sign a contract that forbids any Indian language?

I wonder what the hospital will do if there is a patient who can only speak in a native language or should I say non-english and if they have a nurse who can communicate with that patient in his/her language, will they still insist on the nurse speaking in english? The danger to the patient would be more in that situation. As long as the nurses are able to communicate in the required language with a particular person in the required situation, then speaking in a native language cannot be a danger to anyone.


If it's in the contract, IT'S IN THE CONTRACT
It's not the devil's contract.

I agree with the English speaking rule part, but firing employees for greeting each other is not gr8 act done by the authorities....I'm damn sure if they had done it in hindi, they won't be facing anything like this.
Because if the nurses talked in hindi, the superintendent would have been able to understand what they are saying. This whole issue is probably more about control on a personal level between the nurses and the superintendent. It's 3 women who are involved and you know how controlling women can be, especially against each other.

Your private life is OUTSIDE your office
What happens in a person's private life affects his/her professional life and vice versa. When an organization employs an individual, they don't employ the person's certificate/qualities, they employ the person with the certificate/qualities. It's the private life of a person that makes them the individual whom the organization employed. You can't cut off the private life of a person from their office life because then that person wouldn't be the individual whom the organization employed in the first place.These are human beings here not machines that you can turn on/off features which you dont want at a particular time/place.

Poor nurses got pwned!
^+1

[NucleusKore]

What happens in a person's private life affects his/her professional life and vice versa. When an organization employs an individual, they don't employ the person's certificate/qualities,they employ the person with the certificate/qualities.


Let the employer be the judge of that. He pays the salary on his terms. No one is tying anyone with a rope and forcing them into servitude/bonded labour.

It's the private life of a person that makes them the individual whom the organization employed. You can't cut off the private life of a person from their office life because then that person wouldn't be the individual whom the organization employed in the first place.These are human beings here not machines that you can turn on/off features which you dont want at a particular time/place.

Maybe so, all the more reason you should see what you're signing up for. In private organisations, your private life is NOT PREMITTED to affect your working life. They'll just ask you to pack off. If you don't like this then you'll have to join the CPM.

[MetalheadGautham]

Look, its THEY who signed up to work in that hospital in the first place.
If instead, they boycott the hospital with a lot of people joining the boycott, maybe the hospital will be forced to reconsider.

This has nothing to do with human rights. I have a right to wear what I want and yet I was forced to wear a friggin uniform during my school days. Did I complain ? No because I couldn't. Rules are rules when you sign a paper to obey them as a condition for acceptance into the institution.

[appserver]

What in case if the patient cant speak English?

[Coool]

^^ Send that patient to spoken english classes!!:|

[din]

Well, they are back in the job :)

The nurses welfare association etc intervened and discussed the matter with the hospital head, the head apologized and took them back in the job.

Source : Newspapers.

[afonofa]

Let the employer be the judge of that. He pays the salary on his terms. No one is tying anyone with a rope and forcing them into servitude/bonded labour.

Maybe so, all the more reason you should see what you're signing up for. In private organisations, your private life is NOT PREMITTED to affect your working life. They'll just ask you to pack off. If you don't like this then you'll have to join the CPM.
The employer cannot be the judge of that because he is not employing just a person's qualities, he is employing the entire person. The qualities/certificate which make the person suitable for the job are just one aspect of the person. The employer cannot say that he just wants the best rose petals but not the entire rose because the entire rose includes the stem which also includes the thorns. They say first impression is the last impression for a reason and this is especially important for job interviews. But the employer has to realise that the employer's personal life has shaped his likes/dislikes(first impression) about other people, including his choice of employees. So when the employer is not able to keep his personal life from affecting his decisions in his professional life, then how reasonable is it for the employer to expect his employee to be 100% impersonal?

For eg. if a person "A" is selected for a job and then for next 6 months "A" performs exceptionally well, obviously the organisation is very pleased that they have selected the person with the right qualities for the job. But then suddenly there are some personal problems which start affecting A's work. Would it be right for the organisation to fire "A", simply because A's qualities are now being eclipsed because of personal problems? The qualities which made "A" so perfect for the job are still present in the employee but are just being overshadowed by something greater(personal life/problem).

If the organisation was to say "keep your private life out of your professional life" and fire people on this logic then they would run out of people to employ. A better organisation, instead of firing the employee, would try to facilitate conditions that help the employee to overcome the personal problems so that the qualities can once again shine through. There used to be a time when having love(or other) affairs with co-workers was explicitly prohibited but they(companies/organisations) soon realised that people are still doing it and so now they encourage it (because it helps keep the employees happy) just as long as the employees sign a contract to agree that the company does not get dragged into any kind of harassment lawsuits. So organisations do understand that its not possible to separate private life from professional life.

It would have been good if everyone was like Data(from star trek) so they can just turn on/off the emotion chip. But it's not so and the organisations that recognise this, follow the principle that "a happy employee is a more productive employee". Otherwise there is no need for organisations like Google, Infosys etc. to have gyms and other facilities for their employees. Because those are for the personal aspects of a person. But they recognise that private and professional life cannot be completely separated and so they don't come up with ridiculous rules which go against the very nature of human beings.
Look, its THEY who signed up to work in that hospital in the first place.
If instead, they boycott the hospital with a lot of people joining the boycott, maybe the hospital will be forced to reconsider.

This has nothing to do with human rights. I have a right to wear what I want and yet I was forced to wear a friggin uniform during my school days. Did I complain ? No because I couldn't. Rules are rules when you sign a paper to obey them as a condition for acceptance into the institution.
You are thinking that the sequence of events was this:
1. the nurses read the contract and knew the language is to be english only
2. they still signed the contract
3. they spoke in a non-english language
4. the nurses were wrong to do so.

But you miss the full sequence of events:
0. the hospital made a wrong rule of english only
1. the nurses read the contract and knew the language is to be english only
2. they still signed the contract
3. they spoke in a non-english language
4. the nurses were wrong to do so.
Hence the nurses are absolved of any wrong because they broke a rule that was wrong to begin with. You cannot hold people responsible for breaking a wrong rule.

BTW I think that the reason for making uniforms compulsory is to promote a sense of equality among children, when they are at their most impressionable age. I completely support making uniforms compulsory, maybe even upto the 12th std.
^^ Send that patient to spoken english classes!!:|
What if there is a baby crying? Will the hospital require that the nurses comfort the baby only in english or will any other language or even non-language do? (goo-goo's and ga-ga's that women make when talking to babies)

It's good that they got their jobs back. The nurses were in the right.

[Techn0crat]

^^
+5
I am feeling that hospital management is hired by british.
Even after 60 years...

[NucleusKore]

0. the hospital made a wrong rule of english only

Employers prerogative

[MetalheadGautham]

0. the hospital made a wrong rule of english only
Why is it a wrong rule ? Who are you to judge that ? They are a private institution. They can set their own terms of employment. Its the nurses' fault that they signed up for working there in the first place.

[appserver]

I remember when I was studying sixth standard my school had an informal rule of kneel downing if we found speaking in our mother tongue [Tamil]. Though the intention was to improve our spoken english, the rule was a total trash.

Similarly I think this rule could have been designed as

1. Speak only in English with the patients [if he/she knows English].
2. Dont speak in an alien language to your colleagues in front of the patients.

IMO, these rules looks more sensible.

[MetalheadGautham]

I remember when I was studying sixth standard my school had an informal rule of kneel downing if we found speaking in our mother tongue [Tamil]. Though the intention was to improve our spoken english, the rule was a total trash.

It was your fault you picked the school in the first place if you thought that was unbearably trash.

I on the other hand, had to endure uniforms for 15 years of schooling but had to bear with it since despite this negative, it was worth joining the schools due to quality of education.

Similarly I think this rule could have been designed as

1. Speak only in English with the patients [if he/she knows English].
2. Dont speak in an alien language to your colleagues in front of the patients.

IMO, these rules looks more sensible.
While what you say is correct technically, its still upto the management to decide.

[appserver]

It was your fault you picked the school in the first place if you thought that was unbearably trash.

I on the other hand, had to endure uniforms for 15 years of schooling but had to bear with it since despite this negative, it was worth joining the schools due to quality of education.


My fault? I was just 11-12 in that period. Do you still think that it was my fault?

Country like India where the poverty, casteism, untouchablity still exist, uniforms are for equality. Nothing wrong with that. 8-)

[MetalheadGautham]

Country like India where the poverty, casteism, untouchablity still exist, uniforms are for equality. Nothing wrong with that. 8-)Similarly countries like India where a lot of languages and their many dialects exist, English is for equality. Nothing wrong with that. :p

[appserver]

English for equality, in India? Now this scares me. Gautham, all metropolitan cities are just small part of India. Come out of that and think about villagers who are living most places in our country. To do agriculture, petty businesses their native language is more than enough.

Now considering the rest, I have seen many people complaining that they can't speak in English fluently and this has caused inferiority complex among the rest. English is an universal language, learning is a must, but using in India?

Yes there should be one common language in India, but why English? We have more than 100 languages already, making one of it as a common would be more sensible. Germany,France, Norway, Japan, China or Spain is not using English. They don't bother either..

The reason is that we rate English speaking people as superior, we love fair-skinned people and we do confuse between skin colour and the intellectualism. Yes, apparently we are racist! :-x

[MetalheadGautham]

English for equality, in India? Now this scares me. Gautham, all metropolitan cities are just small part of India. Come out of that and think about villagers who are living most places in our country. To do agriculture, petty businesses their native language is more than enough.

Now considering the rest, I have seen many people complaining that they can't speak in English fluently and this has caused inferiority complex among the rest. English is an universal language, learning is a must, but using in India?

Yes there should be one common language in India, but why English? We have more than 100 languages already, making one of it as a common would be more sensible. Germany,France, Norway, Japan, China or Spain is not using English. They don't bother either..

I was just giving you an example.

The reason is that we rate English speaking people as superior, we love fair-skinned people and we do confuse between skin colour and the intellectualism. Yes, apparently we are racist! :-x
Thats dumb ideology. Who rates english speaking people as superior ?

The one and only reason I speak english is because a majority of people on earth speak it and it allows me to connect with all those. AND because its the easiest language to type on a keyboard. AND because I'm more comfortable with it than anything else.

Now lets replace it with something like Tamil. The only people I will be able to speak to are several million tamilians. Unlike the few billion I get to speak by learning english.

But enforcing one language on others sucks because that removes freedom of expression. The government has no right to do this.

But on the other hand, its perfectly legal to have PRIVATE hospitals enforcing english as a condition for employment, convents and madarasas enforcing christianity and islam respectively as religions, etc because these are designed for particular classes of people.

If you want freedom of speaking any language in the hospital you work in, either join a different hospital or start your own. Simple as that.

[appserver]

Thats dumb ideology. Who rates english speaking people as superior ?


Most of the population. It has become a fashion to converse in English. This is happening mostly in southern states where Hindi does not exist. If you are from Tamil Nadu especially Chennai, you could see this easily, anywhere. Right from Vegetable/fruit sellers to bouncers in the bars use crap pronunciation to the best. If you use [ Include me, how stupid I am :-P] to get escalate in your career, its fine. But why you use it unnecessarily?


The one and only reason I speak english is because a majority of people on earth speak it and it allows me to connect with all those. AND because its the easiest language to type on a keyboard. AND because I'm more comfortable with it than anything else.



How many people in India are connecting like you? How many people in India are typing the keyboard? I am not talking about you at all. Please dont take it personal , I am just trying to figure out the whole Indian population not only a certain minor percentage.

Now lets replace it with something like Tamil. The only people I will be able to speak to are several million tamilians. Unlike the few billion I get to speak by learning english.


Perfectly correct! I want Hindi to be the national language. I don't want to talk in English to a fellow Indian. I want to speak Hindi to Hindi speaking, Tamil to Tamil speaking and English to English speaking. Period!


But enforcing one language on others sucks because that removes freedom of expression. The government has no right to do this.

Right! but it is the duty of our Government to safeguard the beauty of all the languages in our country. We have US/UK to take care of English.


But on the other hand, its perfectly legal to have PRIVATE hospitals enforcing english as a condition for employment, convents and madarasas enforcing christianity and islam respectively as religions, etc because these are designed for particular classes of people.

I agree! But the rule/condition should not be biased and it should be more sensible. What happened to these nurses [by the news] are ridiculous.


If you want freedom of speaking any language in the hospital you work in, either join a different hospital or start your own. Simple as that.

Speaking is illegal but punishing for using couple of words accidentaly or to greet is absurd.

[MetalheadGautham]

Most of the population. It has become a fashion to converse in English. This is happening mostly in southern states where Hindi does not exist. If you are from Tamil Nadu especially Chennai, you could see this easily, anywhere. Right from Vegetable/fruit sellers to bouncers in the bars use crap pronunciation to the best. If you use [ Include me, how stupid I am :-P] to get escalate in your career, its fine. But why you use it unnecessarily?

Using a language just to sound cool even when you are not good at speaking it and when it serves no purpose ?

Don't ask me. I only know *normal* people.

How many people in India are connecting like you? How many people in India are typing the keyboard? I am not talking about you at all. Please dont take it personal , I am just trying to figure out the whole Indian population not only a certain minor percentage.

A small number. But those who do have the same reason.

Perfectly correct! I want Hindi to be the national language. I don't want to talk in English to a fellow Indian. I want to speak Hindi to Hindi speaking, Tamil to Tamil speaking and English to English speaking. Period!

Ah... but why Hindi as the national language ? Just because a few Indians use it others must as well ? :-P

For connnecting, OK, I learnt hindi. For "national language sake", NO WAY.


Right! but it is the duty of our Government to safeguard the beauty of all the languages in our country. We have US/UK to take care of English.

Survival of the fittest. Only the fittest survive in a natural environment. Not interfearing with people's languages is the best way to ensure justice by government.

I agree! But the rule/condition should not be biased and it should be more sensible. What happened to these nurses [by the news] are ridiculous.

What do you mean "biased" ? Its a place for a certain type of people. Others are welcome only if they agree to be like the type of people its designed for.

Speaking is illegal but punishing for using couple of words accidentaly or to greet is absurd.

If it was in the Terms of Employment, I have no reason to call it absurd. On the other hand, the fact that the nurses accepted employment despite knowing the terms under which they work is absurd. True, India has lack of jobs and people must bend a little to get employed, but forking over your personality and dignity for a job is a little unjustified.

[appserver]

Ah... but why Hindi as the national language ? Just because a few Indians use it others must as well ? :-P
For connnecting, OK, I learnt hindi. For "national language sake", NO WAY.


I said national language because most of the Indians know Hindi and one common language would decrease many unnecessary confusions saving time, money and much many things.


Survival of the fittest. Only the fittest survive in a natural environment. Not interfearing with people's languages is the best way to ensure justice by government.


This logic is not acceptable. Survival of the fittest? Our national animal Tiger's population is just around 600. What you want it do? Now the Government is trying to save those 600 so atleast in future we could justify to our kids that our national animal is tiger. Similarly it is the duty of the Government to safeguard the languages, like animals, trees etc..



What do you mean "biased" ? Its a place for a certain type of people. Others are welcome only if they agree to be like the type of people its designed for.


This might take us off the topic, so I am just skipping it right now and probably lets talk in some other thread.

[MetalheadGautham]

Sure. Let me move this to fight club. There we can debate more openly on freedom of language.

But for that I need enough guys to tell me to move this. We have you and me. Who else ?

[dips_view]

The incident(Want Resignation for speaking in native language) isthe clear violation of human rights..Its also gags our constitution.
I really don't understand How some People Support/Justified it?

originally posted by NecleusKore
^+1
If it's in the contract, IT'S IN THE CONTRACT Hey, Do u support bondage labor??????

[i_am_crack]

There is s diff between bondage labour and signed contract... You can get out with bondage labour but not easy in signed contract.. cause its supported by/as per labour law. Want to know who i am ... As u r HR Dept

eBRo

[Ramakrishnan]

They were speaking in private and it is intrusion into private lives by Apollo if the Nursing Superintendent overhears them greet each other. Contracts or agreements can not over-ride fundamental rights. Being Indian it is our fundamental right to speak any language we wish and can speak. As long as it is not hampering the work and in this case lives of other people can not be a case for dismissal – I can’t see how greeting each other jeopardises other’s lives.

I also agree with you.

[a_rahim]

We just need mediator & karnivore in this thread and rest assure this thread will have a long life :D

I dont agree with NucleusKore & MHG. Dont you have any heart? especially you Neville bro since you are in that profession
In any case, speaking in native languages might jeopardise patient safety
Can some guy throw some light on the safety BS:?:
Next is what: One must use fork and spoon & not her hand to eat her rice and dal since Englishmen do so? Lame rules and disgusting for those supporting it.

[deepak_cucek]

^^

completely agreed

[MetalheadGautham]

Thread moved to Fight Club since its being converted to an open debate.
Have fun...........
...................
.............
.........
......Till I reply later :p

[appserver]

What do you mean "biased" ? Its a place for a certain type of people. Others are welcome only if they agree to be like the type of people its designed for.


Biased,I mean if the hospital superintendent, Usha Banerjee finds that her employee talks in Hindi or in Usha's mother tongue, instead of any other regional languages, then she should take similar action. Plain and simple!

Again I am repeating, we should completely oblige the rules and regulations of an organization. But accident or unfortunate mistakes should not punished to this extreme.

[MetalheadGautham]

Biased,I mean if the hospital superintendent, Usha Banerjee finds that her employee talks in Hindi or in Usha's mother tongue, instead of any other regional languages, then she should take similar action. Plain and simple!

Again I am repeating, we should completely oblige the rules and regulations of an organization. But accident or unfortunate mistakes should not punished to this extreme.

Yes that should happen. But unfortunately, it does not because of mismanagement.

[dips_view]

why don't u understand its its clear violation of civil liberty in the name of contract/management??
and also against our constitution...
Before 1947(!!??) WE were bound by British rules/contract/management.or we still bound to it??

[ichi]

why don't u understand its its clear violation of civil liberty in the name of contract/management??
and also against our constitution...
Before 1947(!!??) WE were bound by British rules/contract/management.or we still bound to it??

What is our constitution ?

[dips_view]

posted by ichi..
What is our constitution ?


Any section of the citizens residing in the territory of India or any part there of having a distinct language, script or culture of its own shall have the right to conserve the same.

if u still don't understand that.. then borrow a book from 5-10th grade student and read that..:idea:

[ichi]

Any section of the citizens residing in the territory of India or any part there of having a distinct language, script or culture of its own shall have the right to conserve the same.

if u still don't understand that.. then borrow a book from 5-10th grade student and read that..:idea:

However there are exceptions, Its you who need to borrow a book.

Privacy of voters is another thing but if you choose not to vote then your identity must be revealed. Which in my opinion is quite opposite to the basic right of privacy in voting.

India's constitution is a patch up work. There is no true freedom of press too.

A state can regulate these rights as and when required. Private firms on contract are not bound to these rights.

Indian constitution is pseudo-secular. There is no uniform civil code (we can only dream of that).

[j1n M@tt]

^^ +1

[dips_view]

To ichi,
u r supporting violation civil liberties in the name of contract/management.in the other hand u demand uniform civil code,freedom of press.
Man first make up ur mind.

[a_rahim]

^ichi needs english subtitles :D

[MetalheadGautham]

To ichi,
u r supporting violation civil liberties in the name of contract/management.in the other hand u demand uniform civil code,freedom of press.
Man first make up ur mind.
WTF ? You say contracted labour where somebody states that they are willing to work under certain terms and conditions is violation of civil liberties but don't agree that Uniforms in schools are also violations of civil liberties ?

[nix]

i agree with metalheadgautam.

I support english as the national language of this country, this removes any room for conflict as to which language should be the national language.

if you make tamil the national language, lot of ppl will cry foul. Lot of people also don't like the fact that hindi is the national language.

The problem is that our leaders made states on regional lines. that was a blunder.

@appserver: some people prefer to speak in english not "for fashion", but because it gives you confidence. confidence for life. People who have good control over engish are sought after all over india, thats how it is, weather you like it or not.

and dont compare india with germany. germany doesnt have a 100 languages, so they have no problems choosing a national language. they also have windows and all softwares made in their language. But we cant do that. we cannot have a made-for-india -100-language-pack windows.

[Liverpool_fan]

and dont compare india with germany. germany doesnt have a 100 languages, so they have no problems choosing a national language. they also have windows and all softwares made in their language. But we cant do that. we cannot have a made-for-india -100-language-pack windows.
LOL! Windows! :lol:
Ya! Indian political leaders embrace Linux and get a 100-language-pack OS. :))

[thul]

LOL! Windows! :lol:
Ya! Indian political leaders embrace Linux and get a 100-language-pack OS. :))

One problem solved still many problems left due to multiculturalism and regions demarcated specifically for that.:-D